TheAgitator.com
We’re Falling Down.
Thursday, May 6th, 2004The hawkish response to Abu Ghraib began appropriately, with condemnations, outrage, and calls for accountability.
After just a day or two, it degenerated into “well, at least we’re not as bad as they are.” Or, “hey, they do bad stuff at German prisons sometimes, too.”
High standards, indeed.
And now? Well, just keep reading….
1) This morning on D.C.’s WTOP radio, Fox News’ Britt Hume was asked about the latest pictures published in the Washington Post. Hume’s response? The Post was “piling on.” Sooner or later, Hume said, the American will “tire” of these nasty swipes critics are taking on our troops.
Hume’s a smart, reasonable guy. What he said is neither. The fact that more photographs have emerged ought to make us more repentant, more determined to bring those at fault to account. Hume’s response reeks of victimization.
And what of Hume’s second statement — will the American people ever “tire,” become numb to stories of abuse at the hands of our own military?
Well Jesus, I would hope not.
2) Warblogger darling James Lileks then got an approving link from warblogger grandaddy Instapundit for this bit of vile, smug jokery:
The minute I heard Biden refer to Rumsfeld with the magic words – â??what did he know, and when did he know it?â? – I knew that the Iraqi POW story had jumped the shark. Or rather jumped a pyramid of blindfolded, homoerotic sharks.
Jumped the shark? It’s less than a week old. And stories like these ought not ever “jump the shark.”
As for the second sentence, what a sad, lazy scribble from otherwise immensely talented writer. You see, it’s a joke. James Lileks made a joke. An easy and lame joke, but a joke. A joke about U.S. troops forcing POW’s to masturbate onto one another, lie naked with one another, perform sex acts on one another, and don women’s panties, under point of gun. Acts that produced photos. Photos that will be seen by every Arab and Muslim on the planet. Photos that couldn’t be more ire-raising among Muslims if you’d hired a PR firm to produce them from whole cloth for the sole purpose of raising Muslim ire. Photos that will almost certainly play into the future murder of more Americans.
Funny guy, that James Lileks.
3) If you aren’t yet sick to your stomach, let Rush Limbaugh nudge you further into nausea. Here’s Rush milking the photos for yuks on his show Monday:
And these American prisoners of war — have you people noticed who the torturers are? Women! The babes! The babes are meting out the torture……You know, if you look at — if you, really, if you look at these pictures, I mean, I don’t know if it’s just me, but it looks just like anything you’d see Madonna, or Britney Spears do on stage. Maybe I’m — yeah. And get an NEA grant for something like this. I mean, this is something that you can see on stage at Lincoln Center from an NEA grant, maybe on Sex in the City — the movie. I mean, I don’t — it’s just me.
And here’s an exchange Rush had with a caller on Tuesday:
CALLER: It was like a college fraternity prank that stacked up naked men —LIMBAUGH: Exactly. Exactly my point! This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation and we’re going to ruin people’s lives over it and we’re going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I’m talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You heard of the need to blow some steam off?
How very fucking shameful.
Three words: War. On. Drugs.
Thankfully Rush does not represent most people in the military. If you go to blackfive.net or sgtstryker.com or socnet or lightfighter or military.com you’ll see that most military people are embarassed and angry about this incident and want to clean house of these people.
My brother had the following to say, which is typical of the comments I’ve heard from active duty personnel (He’s USMC): “I am also so pissed at the Army, those fucking PFCs and Specialist
may lead to more American deaths. Heck I say turn them over to the crowds
outside the Prison. I know this Abu Grabe prison is an isolated incident but
perception is reality in situations like this.”
Do you still like Rush Ms. Dani? More “truth” from the big, fat idiot’s mouth….
Ain’t democracy grand?
Of course these are bad things. However, people will eventually not only tire of the media endlessly repeating this story, they’ll start to ask whether the media has an agenda. And, they’ll start to ask where the media was when Saddam was running Abu Ghreib.
And, on the other side of things, the “liberals” are urging that Rummy be fired. Where oh where were the “liberals” when Qusay had 2000 prisoners in Abu Ghreib killed? That doesn’t excuse what we did. However, we have a system in place to deal with things like this, and we’re dealing with them. Some “liberals” are just making things worse and helping our enemies.
Also, some of these photos are not that bad. Posing with dead cows, or things involving soldiers harmlessly goofing off without involvement of Iraqis are not bad, although I’d imagine that the abovementioned “liberals” will attempt to portray them as such.
I find it amusing that people are actually surprised that U.S. troops in Iraq are acting dishonorably. Their very presence there violates their Oath of Service to defend the Constitution, (at least until a proper DoW is made by our chichenshit, buck-passing Congress.)
If these soldiers are willing to lie about something as important as their own service oath, who knows what else these rogue elements are capable of?
The much-maligned mercenaries in Iraq at least haven’t broken their non-existant service oath. They’re only responsible for whatever pillage and plunder they’ve committed personally. The guys at the Pentagon who hired them, on the other hand . . .
>>Where oh where were the “liberals” when Qusay had 2000 prisoners in Abu Ghreib killed?
I was suggesting that Congress issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal against Saddam and his sons. Would a price of, oh, 1 billion a head do the trick?
For 3 billion dollars total the Mossad would have done it, considering it a nice bonus to their annual foreign aid. But they might have had to wait in line.
Think of it: No Saddam, No direct US armed forces involvement, little collateral damage, and a 99% savings over our current course of action. Much less resentment and hatred for the non-existant occupation forces.
Well, we can at least all agree that Lileks is a trite, hackneyed, pseudo-hip hack. He probably has about 200 cutesy iterations for ‘jumping the shark’ at the ready.
As for Lonewacko’s question (which I’ve seen repeated elsewhere), I suggest that they were probably donating to Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International to try and publicize those atrocities
The “where were liberals?” question. Simply. Awesome. Almost as piercing an inquiry as “Why is the left digging up my azaleas at night?”
You know, I like the guy, but can someone get to Lileks and tell him to stop writing about politics? Just stop. His rants are sub-Barbara Streisand in their cluelessness. He’s laid low an entire army of strawmen in a matter of months.
Dude, it’s just not your strength. Stick with old magazine ads, and signs, and postcards, and food, and motels – that’s the good stuff.
“I suggest that ["liberals"] were probably donating to Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International to try and publicize those atrocities”
I’m sure a few were. But, many more were out there at A.N.S.W.E.R. marches, saying things like “at least Saddam was elected” or helping Tariq Aziz’s attempts to stop the war. Those who didn’t carry wacky signs at A.N.S.W.E.R. marches supported those marches in other ways.
Yes, these were horrible things that happened.
BUT what if I try to change the subject entirely? What do you think about that, Smarty-pants?
I frankly think more liberals, more libertarians, and more people in general should join the military so it more accurately reflects the positive contributions of other facets and approaches to life in our society other than the very conservative, black/white, rural/working-class American values that predominate. Don’t get me wrong, I think those things count for a lot. But it’s not good to be around a bunch of people who all think the same about damn near everything. And it’s not good for those other strands in American life to be unfamiliar with the deep and informative experiences of military life, whether peacetime or in combat.
Went to lunch with my regular Wednesday BBQ group.
There was some guy going on with the Rush line on this incident.
I shut him up with one line
“If you are deeply offended and embarassed by this incident then you have no real idea what it is to be a true American”.
He quickly changed the subject.
When I was 32 I thought Al Franken was an idiot, now that I’m older I still think he is an idiot but he was right about Rush.
I can’t understand why this is such a big deal and the oil-for food scandal is only scandalous to warbloggers.
The humiliation of EPWs is offensive and embarassing. But it is a scandal because Americans are better than that. We don’t torture. We’re outraged and the Bush Administration will take a deserved beating.
In contrast, the oil-for-food scandal is horrible because Saddam was starving his subjects (we still remember that don’t we?), paying off many who stood most steadfastly against the war, probably funding terrorist organizations and the UN has been auditing the program and has never found anything. But there is no outrage (except among warbloggers). Heck, the media is treating it like a non-story, even though the malfeasance is of greater proportions and ramifications than Enron or Worldcom or Halliburton. Kofi Annan has ignored the situation as long as possible to prevent having to investigate, and he’s not giving the investigation any teeth.
I’m not saying that I want less outrage for one. But I do want to see more outrage about the other.
Hume and Limbaugh are political partisans trying to move the ball down the field for their team. That’s the nature of the democracy game. If you don’t like the game maybe you should reconsider whether you ought to be playing.
Has the Whole World Gone Crazy? Am I The Only One Here Who Gives A Shit About The Rules? Mark it Zero!
As if it wasn’t bad enough already, now conservatives are rationalizing, equivocating, and joking about Abu Ghraib. I mean, what the hell is wrong with these people? Have they no shame? I was wary of comparisons to Vietnam before, but…
Has the Whole World Gone Crazy? Am I The Only One Here Who Gives A Shit About The Rules? Mark it Zero!
As if it wasn’t bad enough already, now conservatives are rationalizing, equivocating, and joking about Abu Ghraib. I mean, what the hell is wrong with these people? Have they no shame? I was wary of comparisons to Vietnam before, but…
The humilliation of Iraqi prisoners is despicabale. Those responsible should face very serious charges. So is the behavior of Limbaugh. And the “homoerotic” barb by Lileks (who is normally very logical and funny in what he writes) was just in poor taste.
But when I think of the words “torture” and “atrocity” I think of the treatment of Jews, hmosexuals, Gypsies, et al by the Nazis. I’m not sure a gun forced circle jerk is on the same plane as lampshades made of skin and torturing one twin to see if the other has a response. Is there some point where we dilute the common understanding of words like “torture” and “atrocity” much like the word “rape” has been diluted by uberfeminists to mean having the poor judgement to get drunk and screw someone they wouldn’t have otherwise screwed?
Just a question…
Why do we keep seeing the same 3 or 4 pictures of a hooded, naked Iraqi day after day after day, but we only saw the pictures of the 8 mutilated, burned bodies of the Americans once? And I had to search on the Internet for it?
“I shut him up with one line”
“If you are deeply offended and embarassed by this incident then you have no real idea what it is to be a true American”.
If you were able to shut him up with that line of jingoistic horseshit, you were debating a moron.
This ‘Whoa on Terra’ sure will teach the Muslims who is boss, won’t it?
What those troops did was horrible and shameful and they should be punished, but everyone is going nuts.
I’m with Scotty B. These guys weren’t tortured. Calling it torture minimizes real atrocities.
A little perspective, please.
Chris, I think you should consider what went on in there when no one was taking pictures. Keeping in mind that ‘private contractors’ are not bound by Geneva conventions, etc.
Christina, you are so right — and I am so PO’d at all those who, from what I see, wouldn’t care about this one lick, except that they see it as an opportunity to slam the Administration.
You know what’s “effin shameful”? Hearing hacks like Pelosi and Harkin call for Rumsfeld’s resignation — when they haven’t even said ANYTHING publically about Oil-For-Food, let alone call for Kofi Annan’s resignation!
Where are there comments from these people about Sudan taking a seat at the UN Human Rights Commission — even as the perpetrate genocide within their borders?
As for John Kerry — his complaints about the “slowness” of the Administration’s response to this ring very hollow, when the military had announced the investigation for this to the press back in January. Where was his response, then — he’s a Senator, he could have initiated investigations right then? However, now that the photos are out, it’s now worth his attention.
The Dems don’t want an apology from Rumsfeld, or Bush, nor do they really care about really correcting the problem (else they would have been both proactive in their efforts, and judicious in their public statements). They desire full-blown mea culpas that they can weaponize into political ads this Novemeber — nothing more, nothing less.
I’ve stopped reading Lileks. I read his column in the Star-Tribune for years. I read his blog for years. Since 9/11, he has degenerated into mini-Rush. What a waste of writing ability.
Why do we keep seeing the same 3 or 4 pictures of a hooded, naked Iraqi day after day after day, but we only saw the pictures of the 8 mutilated, burned bodies of the Americans once? And I had to search on the Internet for it?
Yeah, that’s true! And while we’re at it, why don’t we see if we can find some pictures of the ±10,000 dead Iraqi civilians? Believe me, Slotman, if you think you had a hard time finding pictures of those unfortunate American contractors who got burned and slung from a bridge, you ain’t seen nuthin yet.
[hat tip to Jeffrey Tucker via lewrockwell.com]
There was some guy going on with the Rush line on this incident.I shut him up with one line:”If you are deeply offended and embarassed by this incident then you have no real idea what it is to be a true American”.
He quickly changed the subject.
Lee, I second Scottp’s assertion. If you shut him up with that meaningless nationalistic hyperbole, then he has no business getting into debates in the first place.
I mean, sure, you may have “shut him up with one line”, but if he had half a brain, he could have shut YOU up with one MORE line: “Would you care to explain, in detail, without the nationalist rhetoric, what you mean by that statement?”
So, would you care to respond to the question your colleague SHOULD have asked?
“Chris, I think you should consider what went on in there when no one was taking pictures. Keeping in mind that ‘private contractors’ are not bound by Geneva conventions, etc.”
Joker,
While contractors might not be covered under the Geneva Conventions, the conventions also do not apply to those who don’t meet the legal definition of prisoners of war.
**The 1949 Geneva Convention on the treatment of prisoners of war defines PoWs as members of the armed forces captured during a conflict, or: Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, â?¦ provided that such militias or volunteer corps â?¦ fulfil the following conditions:
That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
That of carrying arms openly;
That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.***
Why do they hate us again?
Oh yeah, freedom and values…
Can anyone take Rush seriously after comparing this to a fraternity and just having a little fun?
What happened in Abu Ghraib was horrible.
BUT I’d much rather be angry at liberals! Ooh, darn those liberals!
torture – infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
humiliate – to lower the pride, dignity, or self-respect of.
see, they are different words. lets get it right.
CALLER: It was like a college fraternity prank that stacked up naked men —
LIMBAUGH: Exactly. Exactly my point!
What super-gay fraternity did these two belong to?
I’m not sure what to think . . . I wasn’t there. But I’ll tell you that my initial impression is that Rush’s assertion is out of bounds and the notion that one can humiliate one’s enemy in this fashion shows no honor. Even when your enemy shows none, you must or you nullify one of the basic reasons we are supposed to be over there. That reason would be promotion of common decency. I see nothing decent in the photos.
Blowing off steam? Frat prank? My ass. These guys and gals were just being arrogant jerk-offs and they got caught. Let the court martials decide if they were acting honorably. The court of public opinion, no matter where you stand on the issue of this war, should at least be one of embarrassment if not outrage at how these “soldiers” acted.
What I want to know is if it was like a joke from a German prison, where the hell was Dieter from Sprockets?
At least we aren’t as bad as they are? Puuleeease. We’re supposed to be better. In this case we’re not as bad. Hooray for our side.
These images bother me. I hope not to see any more.
The fact that they have been and are being used for political points scoring by both the pro-Bush/anti-Bush demagogues and the pro-war/anti-war demagogues bothers me too.
Nasty images, investigation needed, investigation underway.
Does this invalidate the case for war? No.
Does it reflect badly on the President personally?
No.
My position in a nutshell.
People! People! People! Why so strident? No semi-reasonable, halfway-intelligent person can possibly defend the actions of the American guards in Abu Ghraib prison. We are better than that. We have to be better than that if we expect to lead the world to freedom, democracy, and all the other things that comprise “the good life.”
But neither can those same semi-reasonable, halfway-intelligent people claim the Iraqi prisoners were tortured. People who are halfway-intelligent either already know the definitions to the words they speak and write, or they know how and where to find those definitions.
Think before you speak. And if you still feel moved to speak, speak the truth and say what you mean. Remember, it is always preferable to keep quiet and be thought the fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.
Richard, I still like him. (grin)
Rush was out of bounds with those comments if he really thought that, but he doesn’t. He was demonstrating the ridiculousness of the liberal screech. For example, our non-threatening civilian contractors get beaten, mutilated and burned and dragged thru streets with people around them celebrating and nobody screams for an apology verses a handful of our troops hanging some panties on a guys head and all of a sudden Rummie needs to resign??? Come on. This is Rush rhetoric and post-reductio communique at its best/worst. Besides, if you took everything that ANYONE says, even Rush, at face value, then YOU are the idiot. I didn’t say that everything he says is truth, but a lot of it is, he just uses extreme means to get it across.
Where is the evidence that they had to perform actual sex-acts on each other? I only heard that they made them simulate them (which is still humiliating but different).
What I find perplexing is the assertion that proper training would have prevented all this.
Since when do people need to be TRAINED not to sexually and otherwise abuse others?
Not being an asshole 101
would be the prerequisite for
Not being a sadistic psychopath 102.
Gimme a fucking break.
Ms Dani, I see no difference between the methodology of Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh. There are three simple steps.
1. Take a position, make no attempt to articulate or justify it.
2. Ridicule anyone who either holds, appears to hold or might conceivably hold a different position using whatever combination of strawmen, ad hominem and stereotyping rolls into your head on a stream of consciousness basis. When this fails, just start rambling nonsensically.
3. When the thunder dies down on a particular topic, or you realise that your audience are starting to notice the gaping holes in your reasoning, pick another hot topic and repeat step 1.
Pantomime demagogues are a product of the bitter partisanship which the US is currently so fond of. Both Moore and Limbaugh realised long ago that there was a huge market for winding up their respective political bases, and a far smaller one for taking and defending nuanced positions. Since discovering that, they’ve become rich men at the expense of calm debate and reason.
My heroes.
At least you’re loyal Ms. Dani. :)
I would agree that what happened to the prisoners was not torture, however, I do believe that there was more at play here than a few MPs acting badly. There are reports that Army Intelligence ordered the MPs to “soften up” the prisoners for interrogation. If these allegations are true, it is more than a few knuckleheads acting out, but part of the command structure condoning abuse. THAT is a problem that needs to be investigated.
As far as being outraged about what happened to our contractors, I’m sure we all are, but the difference in asking for or expecting an apology is that those acts were committed by unorganized insurgents who strike at any target of opportunity. What happened to the prisoners was committed by well-trained soldiers who operate within a strict command structure with specific rules, to people who were subdued.
Bruce: If you are going to quote me, please have the decency to give me credit. You may also want to practice what you preach. Or what I preached. Or whatever.
Now shall we go to Margaritaville and knock back a few shooters? Unless you’d mind being seen in public with a rather old corpse. Your call.
= ;)
Bronwyn: The obvious prerequisites for both these courses you mention would be
1) Be an asshole
2) Be a sadistic psychopath
3) Be a psychopath, but willing to learn sadism.
roach: perception is reality in situations like this.
Just out of curiosity, what do you perceive in those photos?
John T. Kennedy: Ain’t democracy grand?
Since you seem unable to articulate a superior alternative obviously the answer is: YES, Democracy is quite â??Grandâ?.
T. J. Madison: I find it amusing that people are actually surprised that U.S. troops in Iraq are acting dishonorably. Their very presence there violates their Oath of Service to defend the Constitution, (at least until a proper DoW is made by our chichenshit, buck-passing Congress.)
Ahhh â?¦ yes, I am guessing you are the same type of person that believes it should be mandated that all guns sold in the U.S. should be required to have built in trigger locks?
Because when someone breaks into your house at night, nothing demonstrates your sense of â??honorâ? to the burglar like you fumbling around with your trigger lock while he blows your head off and proceeds to rape your wife.
I must say I am a bit disappointed, Mr. Madison. Iâ??ve seen much better offerings from you in the past.
Scotty B. The humiliation of Iraqi prisoners is despicable. Those responsible should face very serious charges.
Should any college fraternity which conducts a â??hazingâ? ritual be banned from the college and have its members prosecuted by the government?
Should a fraternity (or other association) face very serious charges for hazing rituals?
Because Iâ??ve seen fraternity hazing rituals that were far worse than anything depicted in those photos.
Scotty B. But when I think of the words “torture” and “atrocity” I think of the treatment of Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, et al by the Nazis. I’m not sure a gun forced circle jerk is on the same plane as lampshades made of skin and torturing one twin to see if the other has a response. Is there some point where we dilute the common understanding of words like “torture” and “atrocity” much like the word “rape” has been diluted by uberfeminists to mean having the poor judgment to get drunk and screw someone they wouldn’t have otherwise screwed.
The Liberals are word-manglers. If they can destroy your language they can destroy your reality.
Evan Williams Yeah, that’s true! And while we’re at it, why don’t we see if we can find some pictures of the ±10,000 dead Iraqi civilians?
I know what 3000 dead New Yorkers look like.
You sound like you are rooting for the guys who started this fight.
Bernard: I see no difference between the methodology of Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh.
Watch for this tactic. Iâ??ve been seeing it a lot lately from the Liberals. It shows just how desperate they are becoming.
I saw that moron Penn Jillet using it the other night.
There is no real difference between the Democrats (Liberals) and the Republicans (Conservatives), they are exactly the same. (Therefore it is only â??logicalâ? to vote for Kerry.)
Of course there is always Nader!
(God forbid one of these “pretend libertarians” actually ever voted Libertarian!)
Non-threatening? They were mercenaries!
Right, Danno. The assumption was being made that, had these soldiers been properly trained, they would not have done what they did.
Ergo, the assumption is that all of us
(or at least, every soldier) is a sadistic, psychopathic asshole (my characterisation, of course) and require specific training for the prevention of such behavior.
All of which is bullshit. These people, I’d use the term soldier loosely and cautiously, were behaving criminally and their superiors permitted it to happen. No training course would have prevented it. Leadership and, perhaps, psych screening of those in candidacy for positions in prison facilities, would have done quite a bit to prevent what happened.
Oh, and please forgive my potty mouth today, folks. I think I’m in a bit of a mood.
Sorry if I’ve offended anyone.
Serpent, I’ve seen hypocrisy and stupidity from you on a regular basis, but i’ve never actually seen you lampoon yourself in the space of a one paragraph comment.
‘Watch for this tactic. Iâ??ve been seeing it a lot lately from the Liberals. It shows just how desperate they are becoming.’
You’re accusing me of a really bizarre version of the ‘all those people who disagree with me are the same’ argument while yourself labelling everyone who disagrees with you on anything you lack the intellect to rebut ‘liberal’ or ‘communist’.
Let me offer you a few suggestions.
If you want to be a figure of fun, keep up the good work.
If, on the other hand, you want to be taken remotely seriously, ditch the adolescant ad hominem and try something at least more original, if not more accurate.
In addition, I have a homework assignment for you. Find me one instance of a liberal of any kind trying to persuade us that liberals and conservatives are exactly the same.
If you can, I’ll be intrigued to talk to them.
If you can’t, it might be as well to concede that you’re talking nonsense now rather than waste any more time deluding yourself otherwise.
Serpent,
A Fraternity is a free association of individuals who have the right to opt out. It is their choice. If they are not given the option, then it may be a criminal issue.
Incarceration, I’m sure you’d agree, is a different scenario.
Serpent,
I agree with the liberals and PC: It’s Orwell’s Newspeak.
Bernard: Let me offer you a few suggestions.
How about if you just shoot for a rebuttal, sport?
Serpent.
A rebuttal to what? I’m happy to rebut any specific position you care to present. Will you actually risk doing that?
Scottie B.: A Fraternity is a free association of individuals who have the right to opt out. It is their choice. If they are not given the option, then it may be a criminal issue.
Incarceration, I’m sure you’d agree, is a different scenario
I agree that joining a Fraternity is a â??choiceâ?.
But are you asserting that it is not also a â??choiceâ? to become a criminal (which is typically the route ones takes to get â??incarceratedâ?)?
Are you asserting that those Iraqiâ??s didnâ??t deserve to be in prison?
Have you ever been in a prison Mr. Scott?
Surely you must have some idea of what prison is like â?¦ correct?
Should I feel sorry for someone who didnâ??t realize that prison wasnâ??t going to be all â??fun and gamesâ? even though it was their own â??choiceâ? of actions that put them there in the first place?
Don’t get me wrong Mr. Scott. I actually think you and I are on the same side on this one.
Well Serpent, my brother said it, not I. But in short, I think the perception is of a run-amuck prison system where the guards are playing cruel and juvenile pranks and humiliations on the prisoners. It does not make us look like a society in control of its soldiers, and it does not make the US look like a well-governed organization in control of its occupation.
Rape is regarded as the most reprehensible crime in the world. Worse than murder. This has been statistically proven by studies of punishments in criminal systems world wide. Typical punishment for rape conviction is 3 to 4 times longer than for murder.
Those of you that are holding the line of “It wasn’t so bad,” or “nobody was hurt” need to head down to a rape crisis center and help those women out with all your sympathy.
roach: Well Serpent, my brother said it, not I. But in short, I think the perception is of a run-amuck prison system where the guards are playing cruel and juvenile pranks and humiliations on the prisoners. It does not make us look like a society in control of its soldiers, and it does not make the US look like a well-governed organization in control of its occupation.
Hmmm â?¦
I can definitely see how some (if not many) Americans (or Europeans) could perceive it that way, but I am wondering if that is how the Iraqiâ??s will perceive it?
I mean â?¦ do those U.S. Soldiers seem any more cruel or juvenile than Saddam and his minions?
The other day I heard Mr. Balko opine that Iraqiâ??s donâ??t have the history and background necessary to comprehend or appreciate Democracy. But perhaps they comprehend and appreciate the message contained in those photos far better than we do?
DougB: Rape is regarded as the most reprehensible crime in the world. Worse than murder.
Iâ??d agree with that assessment.
DougB: This has been statistically proven by studies of punishments in criminal systems world wide. Typical punishment for rape conviction is 3 to 4 times longer than for murder. Those of you that are holding the line of “It wasn’t so bad,” or “nobody was hurt” need to head down to a rape crisis center and help those women out with all your sympathy.
1) What is your evidence that any of those Iraqiâ??s were raped by our soldiers, or on orders by our soldiers?
2) Are you asserting that a prison-sodomy is analogous to an innocent women being forcibly raped by a stranger?
You see, for me personally, I would be very upset if your mother, or sister, or wife were assaulted and raped. But if they caught the rapist, and they threw him in jail for twenty years â?¦ the notion of him being raped in prison really doesnâ??t bother me so much. Seems almost like Karma.
It’s not torture, it’s “freedom tickling.”
http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.php?reposid=/multimedia/tds/headlines/8139.html
ROACH:
The humiliation of Iraqi prisoners is despicable. Those responsible should face very serious charges.
Should any college fraternity which conducts a â??hazingâ? ritual be banned from the college and have its members prosecuted by the government?
If a “hazing” ritual extends to sodomy, beatings, being attacked by dogs, forced into simulated sex with other men, forced masturbation. Then yes, those are crimes and yes, fraternities, football teams,etc. around the nation do get banned and their members prosecuted – check out the football team that sodomized its members – fraternities that forced pledges to drink an entire bottle of liquor, for instance have been banned from campus and had their members face criminal prosecution. “hazing” is not and never has been an excuse to commit sexual assault and other crimes. Sodomizing someone with a chemical light or other inanimate object is sexual assault, regardless of the context “hazing” or not. Raping or otherwise causing serious significant harm to another is NOT HAZING. IT IS A SERIOUS CRIME.
Should a fraternity (or other association) face very serious charges for hazing rituals?
If they break the law, hell yes. Hazing is not an excuse for male rape. See above.
Because Iâ??ve seen fraternity hazing rituals that were far worse than anything depicted in those photos
Then those fraternities have serious problems and should be shut down and investigated by the appropriate criminal authorities.
Just a couple of questions for you frat guys out there? How many of your “hazing rituals” involve being bound naked to other men in simulated sexual positions or sodomized by inanimate objects or masturbating while someone photographs or video tapes you?
Second, if they do, do you enjoy being sodomized and masturbating in front of other men?
Third, if you answered yes to one of the above, what then what the hell is wrong with you and why do you allow yourself to be subjected to that kind of treatment?
This was not “hazing”. It was abuse of prisoners by their guards. It places our soldiers in greater danger, undermines the war effort, and spits in the face of all the soldiers over there who are doing their jobs the best they can. The last thing they need is some bunch of yahoos from Deliverance country abusing prisoners and passing out pictures of it to their buddies. Describing or excusing this as “hazing” is despicable.
Scotty B writes: “While contractors might not be covered under the Geneva Conventions, the conventions also do not apply to those who don’t meet the legal definition of prisoners of war.”
So?
7 year old Iraqi girls wouldn’t be prisoners of war either. Does that mean it would be okay for them to be rounded up and passed around as sex toys in the Green Zone? Hey, it’s okay, they’re not POWs, so the Geneva Conventions don’t apply! We can do anything we fucking want to them!
superdave,
Perhaps we should set up a new government agency or program to save young college students who are thinking of joining a fraternity?
Maybe we could pass a few new â??specialâ? laws to cover the sort of initiation rites that go on in a private organization of freely associating individuals?
Perhaps it is HIGH TIME the government launched a full scale investigation into the practice of college hazing and the initiation rites of all private organizations?
Does anyone here know what actually goes on inside a Masonic Hall?
Perhaps there are some serious â??crimesâ? going on in there that we donâ??t even known about?!?! In fact, the mere thought of it is starting to drive me â??crazyâ?.
Iâ??m going to go and fire off some angry letters to my congressmen immediately!
“Does anyone here know what actually goes on inside a Masonic Hall?”
Well, recently at a Long Island hall, a guy got shot when the grand poo-bah used the real gun instead of the gun with the blanks, at some point in the ceremony.
Supposedly, that was an “unsanctioned” ceremony, something peculiar to that place.
Serpent, I’m confused. Of course I’m not for mandatory trigger locks on civilian (or military) weapons.
I’m not saying the troops shouldn’t defend themselves once they’re over there. I’m saying they have an obligation (adopted voluntarily) to refuse illegal deployment orders. They also have an obligation to get out of Iraq as fast as possible once they’ve figured out that what they are doing is unconsitutional.
(They may also have a positive obligation to do something nasty to the people trying to foist the illegal orders on them.)
You, me, the mercenaries, the Iraqis, etc. are under no obligation to the constitution as we haven’t publicly sworn allegance to it.
And of course the obligation to fulfill one’s oaths only matters if one considers being honorable a positive moral value. The two of us know that these things are fundamentally arbitrary.
What isn’t so arbitrary is the notion that there exists a correlation between liars, thieves, torturers, and murderers, hence my lack of surprise that some of the troops over there (all of whom are liars) are also torturers and murderers.
Outrage’s Double Standard
Outrage’s Double Standard The Abu Ghraib prison abuse story is a disgrace and a terrible blow to perceptions of the US in the middle east and most importantly among the regular Iraqis dealing with the aftermath of the destruction of…
I thought the pictures were hilarious. With the leash, already! BWAHAHAHAHA! Stacked up naked! ROFLMAO! If you let go, you’ll be electrocuted! HAHAHAHA!! I can’t breath! But, hey, they’re heroes for the resistance — stacked up in a naked fag stack!! Maybe they’ll just hit us with their purses from now on. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Hey, Achmed, volunteer this!
Jon H,
Simmer down. You appear to have missed the point, which is,in a legal sense, the Geneva Conventions may not- in many circumstances- be applicable. That’s why detaining “enemy combatants” at Guantanamo Bay is perfectly legal. Now I’ve heard from Rumsfeld, et al, that it was policy to treat those at Abu Ghraib in accordence with those conventions, but it certainly was not a legal requirement in many cases. Jon, I think you may need to clear your thoughts and stay a little more on task. The treatment of prisoners was the topic, not the treatment of 7 year old girls.
Serpent,
Incarceration (prison membership) is a potential consequence of criminal behavior, not the goal.
In “rushing”, membership in a fraternity is the goal. But death by alcohol poisoning might be the consequence.
Outrage’s Double Standard
The Abu Ghraib prison abuse story is a disgrace and a terrible blow to perceptions of the US in the middle east and most importantly among Iraqis dealing with the aftermath of the destruction of Saddam’s regime. As in all…
Scotty B. writes: “Simmer down. You appear to have missed the point, which is,in a legal sense, the Geneva Conventions may not- in many circumstances- be applicable. That’s why detaining “enemy combatants” at Guantanamo Bay is perfectly legal. Now I’ve heard from Rumsfeld, et al, that it was policy to treat those at Abu Ghraib in accordence with those conventions, but it certainly was not a legal requirement in many cases. Jon, I think you may need to clear your thoughts and stay a little more on task. The treatment of prisoners was the topic, not the treatment of 7 year old girls.”
Auschwitz was full of prisoners, but they weren’t POWs, so Geneva didn’t apply. Does that mean it was okay?
For that matter, your argument suggests that you approve of Saddam’s treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, since they were only “prisoners”, not “prisoners of war”.
Jon . . . while everyone agrees (well, mostly everyone) that what happened was wrong, I think your invoking Auschwitz and Abu Ghraib begs an apples and oranges comparison. I think I know the point you are trying to make but the horrors of the concentration camps aren’t even close. Just a thought . . .
Jon,
Perhaps you need a bumper sticker that says “It’s a legal thing, I wouldn’t understand.”
Perhaps if you’d read the statements instead of reading into them, you’d come to the conclusion that I was just stating that there is a definition of who is covered under the the Geneva Conventions vis a vis PoWs. I never once stated that what happened at that prison in Iraq was “okay”, only that that part of the treaty did not apply. If you notice, the trials at Nuremburg had nothing to do with the treatment of PoWs, but crimes against humanity.
**For that matter, your argument suggests that you approve of Saddam’s treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib, since they were only “prisoners”, not “prisoners of war”.**
It must be nice to set up a straw man to knock down. The context of the argument was US TREATMENT OF THOSE DETAINTED AT ABU GHRAIB, not the true torture of Iraqis commited there at the hads of Heussein. But this might be a shocker for you also: THOSE ATROCITIES probably weren’t covered under the Geneva Conventions either. Niether is the theft of my car (goodbye Bessie!), but that doesn’t mean I agree that stealing my car or torturing prisoners is okay. Can you make the distinction? I was arguing the legalities of the issue, not the morality of it. But where international treaties fail, the UCMJ will pick up and jutice will be meted out.
I always considered myself a moral relativist, Serp, but you take the cake.
Rape is the most morally reprehensible thing that a person can do, but in certain circumstances, you think it is a GOOD thing?
Amazing ability to rationalize.
Perhaps we should set up a new government agency or program to save young college students who are thinking of joining a fraternity?
No, we’ve already got law enforcement organizations.
Maybe we could pass a few new â??specialâ? laws to cover the sort of initiation rites that go on in a private organization of freely associating individuals?
Umm . . . we don’t need any “special laws” – we’ve already got laws that cover assault, sexual or otherwise, false imprisonment, etc.
Perhaps it is HIGH TIME the
government launched a full scale
investigation into the practice of
college hazing and the initiation
rites of all private organizations?
My point is that most private organization do not subject their members to criminal assault therefore your dismissal of the Abu Ghaib abuses as “hazing” does not hold water.
We were discussing Abu Ghaib – you argued that many hazing rituals were worse. I’m calling you on that – I’ve been “hazed” or “initiated” before and I don’t remember being sodomized or assaulted in any way. Simulated sexual positions and restraints were not part of the deal. Nor was it involuntary.
I could have gotten up and left at any time.
My point is that there is a line, if crossed enters criminal territory. That line was clearly crossed at Abu Ghaib. Are you arguing that prisoners are there voluntarily? Is what we are witnessing some kind of buddy buddy initiation into the secret order of cool dudes or something? I don’t think so.
My question is still open – I want an example of a voluntary “intiation” or “hazing” of any fraternal organization of any kind, I don’t care -that involves the kind of treatment that the Iraqi prisoners were subject to. Anybody? If we are arguing that this is no worse than a typical frat initiation then there must be lots of people out there that got sodomized by chemical lights while tied up naked to another man with a guard dog chewing on them. After all, that’s par for the course for a typical frat guy right? Come on fellas, that argument just don’t hold water. What happened at Abu Ghaib was beyond any standard of reasonable conduct.
Legalistic arguments about conventions this or torture that are so much psychobabble and rationalization. Nobody can excuse this kind of behavior. I don’t care what you call it.
“I don’t consider what happened to be torture, either…”
Beatings? Insertion of a tube light into your rectum? Being splashed with chemicals? Sexual humiliation while being photographed? Dog bites? You have lost the argument when you change the subject to how things were worse under Saddam Hussein. When a madman is a point of reference on your moral compass, you have strayed far from any sense of decency.
“Where were the liberals…?”
Good question. Where were the liberals when Reagan (and Rumsfeld!) were supplying Saddam with information that helped him target the right places in Iran and Kurdish territory when deploying his chemical weapons. Where were the liberals? We know where the conservatives were: helping.
If it’s foreign governments abusing their own citizens that so inflames you that it justifies war, then we should invade Saudi Arabia. Iraq never came close to the Saudi government’s proud place at number one in the category of public beheadings. After Bush said he wouldn’t be inviting the French Prime Minister to Crawford anytime soon, he hosted a barbecue attended by his pal Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia. Where are the liberals on the Saudi government’s total lack of respect for basic human rights? We know where this administration is: helping.
Something else to look into… apparently there was a lot of sodomy with young children/boys… the pentagon has footagew it refuses to release, but they have it on camera (the boys were usually accompanied with their mothers on the way in, then seperated. Letters to family members asking to be killed for what they had witnessed happened to their children or asking for mercy killings of their children (extremist i know, but sodomy is enough to be cast from allahs presense… to live with it, it accepting it.)