TheAgitator.com
Pat Tillman
Friday, April 23rd, 2004How terrible.
Pat Tillman, the NFL star and 2002 Agity “Hero of the Year” who gave up a multimillion dollar contract with the Arizona Cardinals after 9/11 to join the military has been killed in Afghanistan.
199 Responses to “Pat Tillman”
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I guess he thought he could juke bullets, I mean, once you become a member of the State cabal you’re given all sorts of supernatural powers, right?
That was tasteless.
Football player gives up millions per year to get shot dead in Afghanistan. As far as I’m concerned, this just proves the perfection of natural selection.
Wait, wait. He died protecting me from the invading Afghani army.
Man, I just jizzed all over my keyboard from feelings of State euphoria. Thank you Jebus and thank you gubmint.
Show some respect for the fallen, dickhead.
Wow…must be a sausage party in here, based on all the dicks on this message board. Classy…really classy.
Whoa…I see the enlightened ones have arrived.
It smells like ass in here.
Tillman willingly gave up everything for something he believed in. To make jokes about it is disgusting.
He died moron, protecting you from Afghani’s and others within the borders of Afghanistan from coming to this country and killing you and me. However in yours and Jeremys case I do believe that if terrorism could be selective in its victims I would be all for letting them kill your sorry asses. Lets hope your local police department feels the same way when and if they are ever expected to save you, because your not worth saving.
Sorry Radley if I’ve broken any board rules but these two jackasses have really pissed me off.
Q: When did Congress declare war against Afganistan?
A: It hasn’t.
So what the heck was Mr. Tillman doing over there? Enforcing all those Congressional Letters of Marque and Reprisal, right?
I have a difficult time getting upset when someone who has broken their service oath to the Constitution gets killed. Perhaps someone here will be able to explain to me why I should.
Gees, of all topics for the freaks to show up for. I went to ASU (and the football games) when he played there. (I’ve lived in Phoenix since ‘94.)Jessica Lynch and Lori Piestewa (who our Governor illegally named a highway after to get the Native American vote) were not ‘heroes’ …… Pat Tillman was a hero.
The interesting thing about American heroes? They die so dickheads like Tim have the right to say whatever they want.
thank you keiffer, anvil and james d. well said. michelle
This is truly a great loss. He was such a fine, patriotic individual. And he meant so much to us, unlike all the other casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Perhaps one of you crusaders will pick up where Pat left off? Do your patriotic duty, instead of talking (typing) so much about it.
If he was so patriotic, why did he not stand up to his unconstitutional (and therefore illegal) deployment orders?
T. J. … Radley points out every day how moronic most of Congress is … why should a group of idiots (who spend 70% of their time trying to look good to win the next election) make you feel secure that they’d make the right decision to go to war over someone who has military experts at his disposal?
If it were up to Congress all the time, the only time we’d declare all out war is when the country has already had a devastating attack. It took years of isolationism and Pearl Harbor to get involved in the biggest war ever (WW II). I personally could give a shit what Congress thinks, if I think the cause is right.
Anon:
I did my patriotic duty in the 80’s, I’m now to old or I would be. Any loss of any life is sad, but if you can’t figure out that the terrorists would do this again, if we did not respond with force, then you’re a pretty dim bulb!
Oh some of you people are pissing me off!
I spent 7 years in 1st Ranger Bn. Most of these guys are liberty minded folks who have volunteered to put themselves really shitty situations so you all wouldn’t have to. Whether or not their politics exactly reflect yours shouldnât be a factor in their sacrifice. If you donât like what they are doing that fine. But jumping up and down cheering while pissing on their grave certainly doesnât prove your point. You need to go hang out with your like-minded friends at LGF who rejoice the death.
God did Vietnam screwed up the minds of Americans or what? … the patriots are the ones who die for their country, not the hippies who protest or stand by pieces of paper! When a cop saves your life someday TJ, it won’t be because a piece of paper said he should … it’ll be because he believes it’s the right thing to do.
And Anon, that’s the old, weak defense anti-War types pull but … my Grandfather fought in WWII and my father in Vietnam and Gulf War I … if I wasn’t married and in a little better shape you can bet your ass I’d be over there. As was pointed out in the draft post, our VOLUNTEER military has better equiped soldiers than me so they can be picky.
Jizzed with a capital J.
Unuseful Idiots
Radley Balko is someone that I’ve had lots of disagreements with, but there was nothing tasteless about his notice of Pat Tillman’s death. The commenters who decided to vulture in, on the other hand, are thoroughly contemptible and vile. Football…
Beat you to it then James D. I did my part (for many years), so I feel justified in my comments.
there are few topics that boil my blood like this one. i am disgusted by the lack of respect some of you have conveyed regarding the death of this individual. the attacking is cheap, vindictive and unforgiveable. btw, any anonymous post holds little validity in my eyes. if you cannot put your name to your convictions/thoughts on this or any matter, then why would we as readers take anything you say with any level of credibility. michelle
I am a cold and somewhat emotionless person. Still, I find it impossible not to be grateful of Tillman’s sacrifice for my safety and comfort. I feel the same way about everybody who chooses to defend our country, but it’s especially profound to see the choice made when there is obviously no financial motive to serve.
But after a few minutes reflection, my emotionless nature regained control, and I started to wonder what the political impact of this news will be. Will this bolster the anti-war movement? I think it’s more likely to strengthen the resolve of those commited to pre-empting terror.
But it’s amazing how quickly and rancorously the far-lefties pounce when they smell blood. It kind of reminds me of people dancing in the streets on 9/12. Ignoring the merits, or lack of, in rapidly politicizing death, how do you think this looks to the average guy? Can you possibly see how far out of the norm this behaviour is. If you think bringing back the 60’s strategy of blaming the soldier, like in that Donnovan song, is going to help ANY cause, you’re out of your collective skulls.
Go ahead and try to spin Tillman’s sacrifice as an anti-war statement. It will be an anchor to any person or movement you can attach it to. It smells around here because some of you are soaking in it.
All this “he died for your freedom” bullshit is TIRED. He died ASSAULTING my freedom by inflaming Islamic nutballs even more than the US had already succeeded in doing. But oh wait, I forgot, they attacked NYC because we eat McDonalds and love freedom. At least, that’s what the Texas Taliban wants you to think.
Anvil, you are a typical military brainwashee who lost the best years of your life making minimum wage and getting gangrene in a VA hospital, so you instill a sacred purpose to the filthy business of mass murder for the State and its cronies. Afghanistan never attacked the US and couldn’t have if it wanted to. So get your buzzcut head out of your red-white-and-blue ass and WAKE UP — anything NFL boy did “fer freedom” was a mite too late for the thousands killed when planes flew into the fucking WTC, ya know? All he’s doing is making Muslims hate America more, and for good reason.
Ted Bundy also “willingly gave up everything for something he believed in” — he liked to kill young women, and he gave his life for that. Is that honorable? No. I bet Mr. Patriotic sent a few chunks of lead into the skulls of a few young women himself. But they’re ragheads right? Who cares about them!?
on another note, anvil and any others who visit this website and who have seen active duty of any sort, thank you for serving your country. it is a brave and noble thing to do. michelle
T. J.,
Itâs called the War Powers Resolution.
I mourn the death of Mr. Tillman and find some of the comments so far to be in poor taste.
However, Mr. Tillman died for a lousy cause. That’s not his fault, and again, I admire his courage and sacrifice. But the United States can end terrorist attacks simply by not sending our armed forced into Muslim countries that do not threaten us.
Al-Qaida formed as a response to Operation Desert Storm, when tens of thousands of U.S. troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia — holy land to Muslims — in order to intervene in an intra-Muslim conflict we had no interest in. Rich Casebolt et al. will stretch American national interest here to include practically any conflict around the globe, which is a healthy difference of opinion I suppose, but overcommits our forces and leads to retention problems, armed blowback in the form of terrorism, and loss of U.S. credibility in the world.
They are over here because we are over there. I have no interest in trading body blows ad infinitum with a billion Muslims around the world in a never-ending conflict where both sides say the other struck first. It’s pointless. Let’s get out of this cycle now — for the sake of the Pat Tillmans still alive, American and Muslim alike.
Hey Pinbot, nobody here is a far-leftie or even a near one. War is the ultimate hardcore socialism, and I am the ultimate anti-socialist, so I must logically be antiwar.
And “michelle” — what is the difference between using a common first name with no link to an email and using the word “anonymous”? “Michelle” isn’t exactly “Cher” now is it? We still don’t know who the hell you are! Moron.
And some people wonder why I’ve been embarrassed to call myself a libertarian since 2001.
R.I.P. Mr. Tillman. And thank you.
LOL at idiot Jeremy…muslims hating you more. I have never met you and I know you are a prick. I don’t much blame the Muslims for hating you asshole.
Anon, then I thank you for your service, but still remember the ’servers’ are the reason you are free to say what you want in this country. Not the hippies.
I think I’ve had enough of the ridiculous spin some of you freaks are posting. It’s not worth arguing with bullshit.
And comparing an American soldier to Ted Bundy …. I hope a muslim terrorist bombs a building you are in Jeremy. That was the stupidest comparison I’ve heard since the Hitler/Bush bullshit.
Actually, all kidding aside, thank you MattG for your sane post. You’re absolutely correct. I don’t want to anyone to die. But I’m not gonna praise some moron who was mistaken in thinking being a sitting duck in Afghanistan is defending his country especially since it was AFTER THE FACT. And if we are attacked again, which, after the Iraq slaughter, is likely, then what the fuck WILL he have died for?
That’s right — NOTHING. Except furthering the careers of a few neocons.
“And comparing an American soldier to Ted Bundy …. I hope a muslim terrorist bombs a building you are in Jeremy. That was the stupidest comparison I’ve heard since the Hitler/Bush bullshit.”
Typical. Wishing more death everywhere you look, huh warmonger?
And Michael,
“LOL at idiot Jeremy…muslims hating you more. I have never met you and I know you are a prick. I don’t much blame the Muslims for hating you asshole.”
I actually said “hating America more” but if I HAD said “me”, that would have been hilarious! Hats off to you.
WOW, the fires will burn long here tonight!
I offer my condolences to the Tillman family.
Michelle, I hope you don’t attack my use of the ‘Joker’ pseudonym.
I’ll try to seperate myself from the muck.
Radley, thank you for acknowledging this, I agree Tillman is/was a hero. I read the story’s on CNN.com and Fox news hoping that you would post something on it. I was glad to see it on the top of the page. I was also discouraged to see the first few replies, but we’re all entitled to our opinions.
To me Pat Tillman is everything the overused word “HERO” should be. Being 37 years old, colorblind and *slightly* overweight I can lean on that as my reason for not being there fighting. But that isn’t the reason. The real reason is because the thought of it scares the living hell out of me, and if I had 3.6 million dollars I can promise you I would not have left that to join the army… no way. So for that reason alone I can comfortably state that Pat Tillman is 10X the man I could ever hope to be, and yes, a hero.
http://www.pigstye.net/iraq/wd.php
Here is a link to all “Ted Bundys” that have fallen.
Jeremy,
You could make your points more effectively by stating them in a less offensive way. I agree with what you’re saying about the misdirected use of U.S. state power and that Mr. Tillman did not die in a cause worthy of either his courage or the United States of America’s name. But a little sympathy for a dead man — a brave one — might do you some good.
Tim Swanson, same to you. If you have something to say, say it in a way that moves the debate forward.
You’ll note I did not imply that the troops were like serial killers. What I obviously meant is that just because someone does something they believe in doesn’t mean what they believe in is right.
jeremy sapienza-first, namecalling does little to earn or maintain your credibility.
secondly, war is the ultimate hardcore socialism? what exactly does that mean? please elaborate.
though i’d hardly compare myself to “cher” i’d be happy to further make your acquaintance. that way you might explain yourself, your motives, aspirations and opinions to me a little more thoroughly. michelle
Okay, I got carried away. I edit and do research for Antiwar.com and I get some disgusting, nasty email every day from people who want me dead just for REPORTING THE NEWS. This leaves me pretty numb to the whining of statists and war types about the “fallen heroes” — especially since I think all these “heroes” are doing is giving Osama more fuel for the fire he so badly wants.
So yes, it sucks that people die. But I’m not gonna cry for professional killers.
Michelle — you’re a casualty of my adrenaline. Sorry.
jeremy@redfit.com
Military service is noble; sending kids to die is rarely noble.
Since this had to happen, I wish it had been in Iraq instead of Afghanistan. The high-profile nature of this horrible casualty–as all casualties are–might have made our nation look harder at why we’re in Iraq.
I think our country’s tolerable casualty rate in Afghanistan (i.e., wiping out al Qeada), is much higher than in Iraq. If we lost Tillman in Iraq, the PR shitstorm to follow might have made a difference.
At any rate, Tillman’s a hero, and so are all the rest of those that serve us.
A well written eulogyfor those interested.
http://www.nfl.com/insider/story/5701425
A better comparison I think would be a person who is pro life. One may disagree with them politcally but their high regard for human life is worthy of respect.
Tillman did not volunteer to go kill a bunch “rag heads”. He believed he was fighting. One may disagree with the fight, but his patriotism is worthy of respect.
oops,
I meant fighting for freedom not just fighting.
“Typical. Wishing more death everywhere you look, huh warmonger?”
Nope, just to those whose stupid, out-dated, disproven theories end up causing the deaths of more Americans in the long run, that’s all. It doesn’t help that your method of writing incites a violent response. You’ll note that MattG hasn’t pissed anyone off yet (at least not to that point).
“One may disagree with the fight, but his patriotism is worthy of respect.”
I think this statement of Michael’s distills the debate pretty well so far.
We need to continue to debate whether these wars are worth fighting, but this thread might not be the place to do it.
Thank you, Mr. Tillman, for your sacrifice.
MattG — I had a retort to your earlier post where you referenced me, but I lost it in transit …
… and I’m glad it was lost. We do need to continue this debate, but this thread is not the place to do it.
Pat Tillman died defending me and mine, IMO — he died with honor, and both my sorrow and my gratitude for his sacrifice.
Anyone who dies for their coutry is a hero. Politics aside, all these rights we have depend on the willingness of these men and women to lay down their lives to defend it. I am one who thinks “Citizenship” is given too freely to those who hate everything that was lost to attain it.
There can be debate on the merit’s of war but realize that the soldier is not the target of our disrepect.
If you must disrepect these honored dead then you must disrespect everything they have fought for in every war ever fought.
“Nope, just to those whose stupid, out-dated, disproven theories end up causing the deaths of more Americans in the long run, that’s all. It doesn’t help that your method of writing incites a violent response. You’ll note that MattG hasn’t pissed anyone off yet (at least not to that point).”
That’s right, I’m abrasive, so I obviously deserve death. I wonder what you propose for actual criminals!
And there is nothing outdated or remotely unproven about what I know to be true. The American Empire has reaped blowback for the past century of intervention and mass murder. And now it sows more. The people who sow, rarely reap. And so it continues. With you to cheer them on.
jeremy, i have days like this too. apology accepted. have a good weekend. michelle
FYI - the link above is not a euology, it was written in 2003. Not that it really matters, but it is a bit jarring to read a paragraph or two in present tense before you catch on that it is an old article!
“Anyone who dies for their coutry is a hero.”
No, they are borg. I live for me and the people important to me, not some ethereal collective called “the country.”
“Politics aside, all these rights we have depend on the willingness of these men and women to lay down their lives to defend it.”
Patently incorrect. My rights exist despite every effort of the State to crush them underfoot. If America hadn’t lucked out with this odd kind of government that makes it hard for it to expand very quickly, nobody would have any rights at all to care about dying for.
“I am one who thinks “Citizenship” is given too freely to those who hate everything that was lost to attain it.”
I own my home. You are obviously under the impression that the State owns ME and has the right to decide if I can stay in the home I bought with my own money. Communist.
“There can be debate on the merit’s of war but realize that the soldier is not the target of our disrepect.”
If they refused to kill there would never be any killing, because God knows most armchair warriors have never even seen a gun.
“If you must disrepect these honored dead then you must disrespect everything they have fought for in every war ever fought.”
I do. Because they have all fought for the aggrandizement of elites and the glory of the State.
reason 23,222 that Starship Troopers ought to be required reading in American high schools. Hell, grade schools.
Jeremy, umm, did you forget that Al Qaeda is still on the run in Afghanistan. Iraq might be debatable, but why are you talking such idiotic nonsense about Afghanistan.
You should spout that bullshit at some Fort Bragg bar.
I’d like to nominate Jeremy Sapienza and Tim Swanson for most moronic commenters of the year.
Both are obviously smart, but thoroughly uneducated. If they have been educated, then Ms. Dani is right about the state of our education system. I encourage both of you to put down the video games and make something of yourselves. You’ve got potential, please don’t waste it.
T. J. Madison, on the other hand, seems bitter about something. My guess is that either his mother didn’t show him enough love or she showed him too much. I can only feel pity for one that is so bitter and lonely that he feels the need to speak against the dead.
Jeremy says: “If they refused to kill there would never be any killing, because God knows most armchair warriors have never even seen a gun.”
BBBBBBZZZZZZZZ. Wrong. If they refused to kill a better organized army from somewhere else would enslave us all sooner or later. Read some history, retard. Your solipsistic I’m all out for me and screw this “collective entity called ‘country’” leads to a Somalia-like situation in the end. Is Somalia the Libertarian paradise? They have no government there. Too bad someone forgot to tell the crooks, bandits, and terrorists that terrorize the disorganized, fatally individualistic and tribalistic victims.
Roach:
“Jeremy, umm, did you forget that Al Qaeda is still on the run in Afghanistan. Iraq might be debatable, but why are you talking such idiotic nonsense about Afghanistan.”
Oh, yes, “al-Qaeda” is still on the run in Afghanistan. They’re everywhere, genius, and yes in Iraq, especially, now that Uhmayrikin Soldiers for Freedom have made it a terrorist’s dreamland. So after two years of war, why hasn’t our omnipotent government been able to catch, like, ANYONE? What does your comment have to do with anything — at all?
“You should spout that bullshit at some Fort Bragg bar.”
Are you implying that my faithful Uhmayrikin Solders for Freedom would harm me in some way? The very ones who would die to protect my rights? That’s exactly why I stay the fuck away from psychos with guns who have a license to kill.
‘Patently incorrect. My rights exist despite every effort of the State to crush them underfoot.”
Jeremy,
You are correct, we are all endowed with certain unalienable rights by our Creator. But, it is the governments responsibility to secure those rights, which Tillman and others like him are doing.
Sorry. I insulted the honest folks on the far-left by associating their beliefs with the likes of some of today’s rabid ranters. There is no term to describe the nature of person that makes comments like we’re seeing today.
Hmm, quick CV:
I enlisted in the Army in May of 2001, left in February 2002 as a conscientious objector.
I’m a full-time graduate student at what is probably the largest neocon-hawk institution of higher learning: Texas A&M University (where I also received my undergrad edumacation).
Currently, one of my best friends is a former Ranger from the 3rd Battalion, who was at one point deployed in both Afghanistan and Iraq.
Anyways, if you really are pissed that I don’t believe the same way as you, there really isn’t much I can do for you as I have absolutely no pity for an individual who volunteers for a job which entails being shot at each and every day, his choice. However, if you really do want to talk about this, feel free to look me up on the A&M directory and email me from there.
This post brought to you by the word Vaseline and the letter J.
I guess Khalid Sheik Mohammad and Ramzi Bin Alshib are not ANYONE according to Jeremy. And what about all the Arabs we have in Gitmo? Are they anyone? Have you forgotten where Atta and company trained and got organized? Have you forgotten the Taliban sheltered these freaks?
Psychos with guns? The only psychos I’ve ever met with guns are these wannabe pseudo-tough militia trash like yourself that can’t even run 5K and pretend they’re hard as nails. What will a lone wolf like yourself do when an even slightly organized enemy comes your way. You’re a coward and all of your spouting is just rationalizations. You’re an embrassment to the human race.
Conscientious objector? Is that code for scared shit when the bullets started flying?
You should have been dishonorably discharged Tim. And I’ll make sure the good folks at the Corps look you up.
“BBBBBBZZZZZZZZ. Wrong. If they refused to kill a better organized army from somewhere else would enslave us all sooner or later. Read some history, retard.”
I have read more history than you even know exists, dipshit. I meant ALL soldiers and I meant aggressive wars. There is nothing wrong with defending yourself against aggression with force. Killing tens of thousands of Afghan and Iraqi civilians after 9/11 doesn’t fit the bill, so EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Oh, I’m s
sorry, the buzzer means you’re wrong.
“Your solipsistic I’m all out for me and screw this “collective entity called ‘country’” leads to a Somalia-like situation in the end. Is Somalia the Libertarian paradise? They have no government there. Too bad someone forgot to tell the crooks, bandits, and terrorists that terrorize the disorganized, fatally individualistic and tribalistic victims.”
Did I dream this? LOL!
Somalia is the only anarchic country on the face of the planet. Are you saying that what they currently have is worse than when they had a government that slaughtered innocents and kept them yoked with the chains of communism? Somalia these days has multiple COMPETING electric, garbage, phone, cellphone, road, and internet companies and has many other local industries. If it weren’t for international trade sanctions against these innocent people simply because they don’t care to be enslaved by a UN-picked dictator anymore it would be an economic powerhouse rivaling Hong Kong.
At that point, any support for tribe or thug left would be quickly neutralized by soaring prosperity.
DO brush up a bit on your current affairs and economics.
Wow.
Never stops amazing me how misguided one can get.
But I’m ruminating on it. Maybe it’s jealousy.
Tillman is a hero. Men and women like him afford the rest of us, including our new friends Tim and Jeremy our freedom and security. If they don’t comprehend that, oh well, no sweat. At the end of the day, I know that, as do most of you and most importantly our armed services know that.
Having not served in the military, I cannot say I ‘have been there’. However, I do understand the concept of defending freedom and liberty. Contrary to the beliefs of some, Mr. Tillman understood this concept and paid the ultimate price for his belief. Whether or not you agree with his decision or belief, disparaging the results of his decision is cheap and reprehensible.
Somalia’s the next hong kong. You heard it here first!
No I don’t think it’s better than tyranny. Yes I think it’s many times worse than the stable, constitutionally limited governmetn we have in this country, defended by our Armed Forces.
“Conscientious objector? Is that code for scared shit when the bullets started flying?”
Uhh, I’ll gladly defend the life and liberty of my friends and family and even my neighborhood. But I’ll be damned if I go fight someone elses war. Did you enlist?
“You should have been dishonorably discharged Tim. And I’ll make sure the good folks at the Corps look you up.”
Yea, because dishonorably discharging me is really going to solve the issues at hand. And what exactly is the Corps going to do to me?
Signed on for CPA civilian job, but no call back yet. Bitch!. (And USMC PLC in ‘96).
I’ll let the Corps figure that one out. But make sure you are principled enough not to call the government police when a well organized group proceeds to show you the meaning of pain.
I was going to chime in and shout a big “f*ck off” to all of the panty waste turds who are without taste trying to turn Pat Tillman into a poster boy for warmongerism . . . but I see that battle has been well met by the sensible and honorable people of this board.
I will add this to those of you who would try and belittle this man’s heroism as something far less: Shame on you . . . but as many have pointed out, not just here, Pat and countless other people like him died for your right to dishonor them. Ironic, isn’t it?
Smoke your fattys, watch TV, ya know - keep doing what you do best.
Oh yeah . . . f*ck off.
You’re mad at me for what, for saying that I didn’t shed a tear for Tillman?
I looked up your “about” info. Guess who put together the Mises blog? Guess who writes for the LvMI and LRC?
Also, I have lots of friends in the Corps who are familiar with my beliefs and none of them shat a brick after hearing it. Why on earth would you want to waste time, energy and money on trying to force me to believe what you do?
“I guess Khalid Sheik Mohammad and Ramzi Bin Alshib are not ANYONE according to Jeremy.”
Yeah and terrorism is no more! Honestly, I don’t know who they are, because all the information I have on them comes form the Pentagon and the government of Pakistan. And no, I do not know which one I trust less.
“And what about all the Arabs we have in Gitmo? Are they anyone?”
I don’t know — nobody’s allowed to talk to them! And what of the ones they set free after two years? Who were they? Apparently, they were exactly NOBODY.
“Have you forgotten where Atta and company trained and got organized?”
Yes, reportedly, Afghanistan. What does that have to do with anything?
“Have you forgotten the Taliban sheltered these freaks?”
Nope. Again, WHAT HAS CHANGED SINCE 9/11? You can skip the part where a terrorist attack is more likely now than then, cuz I already know that, since your buddy Donny Rumsfeld tells me all the time.
“Psychos with guns? The only psychos I’ve ever met with guns are these wannabe pseudo-tough militia trash like yourself that can’t even run 5K and pretend they’re hard as nails.”
Wow, I have never met a real, live militia psycho before. Actually, I’m a 24-year-old high school graduate FAGGOT who probably makes more money now than you ever will in your whole life — and no I can’t run 5K or even 5 blocks, I have no endurance. I’m more of a benching more than my weight kinda guy.
“What will a lone wolf like yourself do when an even slightly organized enemy comes your way. You’re a coward and all of your spouting is just rationalizations. You’re an embrassment to the human race.”
Who says I’m a lone wolf? What organized enemy, besides the good ol US government or some of your Marine pals lookin to shut me up, would ever come my way?
I’m not a coward. But I do have to say, that the wealthier I get, and the more I have to lose, the less you’ll hear from my big mouth. You know why? Because this is not a free country and psychos that are held up as heroes would kill me in a fucking heartbeat if they could get away with it. Because I am threatened every day by scumbags like you who can’t STAND that people have opinions that you don’t like. YOU are the problem with this world, and unfortunately pieces of shit like you are the ones who run this world. So at some point, yes, I will shut my mouth and go quietly into obscurity and comfort, to keep myself safe from you people. Then you’ll just say “see? it’s because he’s finally realized he’s free.”
“And what exactly is the Corps going to do to me? ”
Duh, Tim, they’re gonna beat the crap out of you, like good Marines. All the while Fighting for Your Freedom ™.
Because you piss me off Tim. I think people like you are parasites. You don’t realize that all this shit around you–freedom, wealth, national security etc.–it’s your inheritance. We’re born indebted to this society and if we’re lucky we pay it off and leave it a little better. Or did you think the Nazis, the British, and the Indians all got resisted automatically. You think it’s all free and you can’t understand that some people have a sense of duty, people like Pat Tilman.
You’re an archetype; the parasitic cynic. I fucking hate people like you. And I’m sure your don’t ask don’t tell friends in the Corps are a distinct minority.
I was wondering how long it would be til someone invoked Heinlein. Good job, Mike.
The problem is not that every single individual has an opinion, the problem is that every one of them thinks their opinion matters to anyone but them.
And now that I’ve invalidated anything else I could possibly say in this post, I’ll add this:
There are two types of people who see conspiracies (like an “American Empire”). One finds facts that don’t make sense, then digs further to find additional facts, then decides something fishy is going on. The other kind first decides that groups are working against him, then searches frantically for facts that might support him. And they both think that they’re the first type. I know I do.
Suicidal notions of freedom and justice aren’t for me guys, sorry. And while I don’t think subversives should be jailed necessarily, I’m content to allow shame, ostracism, and “private law enforcement” take care of the job. It may not be perfect, but you disorganized paraistes can’t do shit about it.
Okay I gotta get back to work. Sayonara, pensioners! Oops, I didn’t mean to use Japtalk. If we didn’t melt those fuckers we’d all be talkin zipperhead right now!
and enough with the name-calling. Really. I think we’ve reached an intellectual quagmire. Save the taunts for the discussions of whether or not GWAR kicks Slayer’s ass or whatever.
war sucks. i hate war.
Save the taunts for the discussions of whether or not GWAR kicks Slayer’s ass or whatever.
Ha. Everybody knows Pantera kicks BOTH their asses in spades.
Wow, I have never met a real, live militia psycho before. Actually, I’m a 24-year-old high school graduate FAGGOT who probably makes more money now than you ever will in your whole life — and no I can’t run 5K or even 5 blocks, I have no endurance. I’m more of a benching more than my weight kinda guy.
All right then. Is your dick bigger than his, too?
“Save the taunts for the discussions of whether or not GWAR kicks Slayer’s ass or whatever.”
It’s not my fault that Jeremy and Tim are douchebags.
I forgot to say, Radley, I know you’re a passionate critic of some of our foreign policy. But good on you for recognizing the dignity and sacrifice of Pat Tilman. We’ve disagreed hard-core in the past, but you’re good people in my book.
To Pat Tillman:
I have never met you but I am thankful for you and your brothers-in-arms.
When I first heard of you, you were chastising the crowd of Sun Devil Stadium after a Cards/Cowboys game for booing their team off the field. It takes balls to take the folks that pay your salary to task. But I had no idea what kind of moxie you had until I heard that you gave up millions of dollars and the NFL lifestyle to serve your country.
As I was driving into work this morning, I heard that you had been killed in action. I pulled over to the side of the road and cried. Why? I am saddened by the death of every soldier I have heard of in theis war on terror. I didn’t cry for them so why did I cry for you?
I’ll tell you why. Because you were representative of a dying breed of man. A selfless person who thought that it was more important to give something back to this country rather than take it. I gotta tell you, Pat. I wouldn’t have done what you did. But I am glad that there are those like you who would. My family and I sleep better knowing you are there protecting us. And when you die in the process, there is no thanks enough for you.
But for what it’s worth . . . from the bottom of my heart and soul . . .
Thank you.
*Sits back - WAY back - and warms self by the flames*
Jeez you guys. There’s a place for this sort of talk, and it is not here.
Rest in peace, Mr. Tillman and all the unacknowledged folk who have died in this mess.
I would like to put in a nomination for Danno49 for post of the year.
Yeah, please let’s rip on each other about music. I’m frankly tired of Tim and Jeremy’s ridiculous comments. We should have stopped responding to Jeremy the moment he mentioned he works for antiwar.com … I mean that explains everything …
Pat and countless other people like him died for your right to dishonor them. Ironic, isn’t it?
Some people have no idea what irony is. Yeah, that’s about as “ironic” as the situations on that Alanis song. “Black fly in your chardonnay”, et al.
Regardless, like Rooney said, everyone who signs up for the military is not automatically a hero, nor do they automatically get the label of “fighting for my freedom”. Do I believe that a single one of those guys in Iraq are “fighting for my freedom”? Oh, hell no. I support them, I think that they’re doing the job they signed up to do. But if we really “honored” them, we’d be fighting to bring them home, out of harms way.
I just don’t buy this whole scenario:
1) Citizen signs up for military
2) Crooked evil neocon pols send them on an ultra-interventionist nationbuilding mission in some ugly desert hell
3) They are automatically “fighting for my freedom”
No, no, no. I pay my respects to the dead, of course. I am not cold or heartless. But is this guy any more of a fucking “hero” than anyone else over there who’s coming home in [censored] flag-draped boxes? Just cuz he used to be in the NFL? Nah. I don’t see all you guys rushing to “honor and respect” the other 700+ soldiers who have died over there.
Yes, it takes a lot to give up a fat NFL contract to go fight in Afghanistan…and avenging 9/11 was a noble fight. But, damnit, I’m sorry, folks, but if you signed up for nat guard to pay for your tuition, then got sent to Iraq or Afghanistan to do the job they signed up to do, well, then that’s their job. They’re not necessarily fighting for my freedom, especially in the case of Iraq.
RIP-Every Fallen Soldier that has died for our foreign policy sins. Not just Pat Tillman.
I’m scared shitless of soldiers. Lately I’ve met alot less of em. I guess they’re all over in the Middle East. I saw this one Iraqi dude on the Internet, someone defended some freedom right through his cranium. Bet he’ll think twice next time he tries to pull any of that wedding bullshit.
Oh, and Pat Tillman, class act. They hated him for his freedom.
Did they just get internet access in the asylum today or what?
Jeremy, I loved your columns on lewrockwell.com, now you just sound like an asshole.
I don’t know Anvil, but reading these posts is better than watching TV.
Jeremy. You are really making antiwar.com look bad here. It’s not a bad website and has some good articles but you are really doing a disservice with your obscene and racist comments. Does everyone at antiwar.com have your same eloquence? Either way I think you have done some damage to your reputation and the character of your employer.
To those regulars of this site who saw my post a week ago about civility in posting, and purposeful baiting by individuals…
I rest my case.
anvil - on the off chance that you are not being sarcastic: thanks.
Any of you who have broken an unjust law, dodged an unjust draft, avoided paying taxes, bought or sold anything without government approval, YOU are the real heroes. Pat Tillman died defending something he believed in, but he didn’t die doing something I believe in. It’s a pity he was wasted on something like Afghanistan when he coulda done more for humanity as an athlete.
Oh, well. This is a good lesson for the young people out there: what happened to Pat and thousands of others can happen to you.
Has anyone seen a few mental patients wandering about aimlessly around here? There’s been an escape and we’re trying to round up those who got out. Anybody sees a guy named Ray, let me know. Oh yeah, there’s a Jeremy and a Tim as well. Thanks for your help.
100. Yay.
“Have you forgotten where Atta and company trained and got organized?”
“Yes, reportedly, Afghanistan. What does that have to do with anything?”
Well, a lot, actually. We attacked the training camps there because they were breeding terrorists. We attacked and removed the Taliban because they harbored these terrorists. The war in Afghanistan was completely justified, and I am grateful to people like Tillman for their service there. I wish to send my condolences to his family and friends.
Should the US have allowed the terrorist training camps and the Taliban to continue to exist? How else should we have gotten rid of them, if not by force? Diplomacy just doesn’t work in this situation.
Even if the US had stayed out of everyone’s business, bin Laden & Co. would have found some other reason to attack us. These radicals want to replace modern society with their own medieval Islamic state.
We supposedly had no interest in kicking Iraq out of Kuwait, so therefore should have stayed out of it. We had no interest in Rwanda, either, and stayed away, and look where it got them. Al Qaeda’s beef with the US over Gulf War I is irrational and proves they were just looking for an excuse. Sorry, but infidels in the holy land doesn’t quite justify 3000+ lives in my book.
Tillman was an invader. Nothing heroic about it.
Holy crap, I just found my medication.
Thank you guys so much. I don’t know what I was thinking.
Boy, was I trippin. I had this funky dream that some athlete gave up a $3 million contract for an $18,000 salary as a Ranger in Afghanistan, only to die at the age of 27. What’s the saying about the fine line between bravery and something? I can’t remember what the other thing is.
This country rocks. Mainly because it’s full of stuff like $3 million contracts at dream jobs. And cuz people worth $3 million don’t have to get their $3 million brains blown out like a common dime-a-dozen soldier.
Potential millionaires shouldn’t have to die like animals. That’s what we have the high school bottom quarter percentile for. That’s the real tragedy.
Thankfully, I have my medication now, tho.
Laura, keep in mind that there is also the pesky issue of US support for Israel, which the Arab world sees as unfair (to put it mildly).
With regards to your argument that Osama would have attacked the US regardless, keep in mind that Osama is not attacking Brazil, Norway, South Africa, South Korea, blah, blah, blah… the list is long. He picked the US for a reason - the man is not a moron.
He has an easy job selling his ideas to his followers. It’s that simple.
In fact, if you reflect on the issues a bit longer, you begin to see the symbiotic relationship between Osama and the Bush administration. Both need each other to remain in power. This is not a conspiracy theory, just an irritating fact.
Anyway, I need to get back to work, shut up & pay my taxes.
Who are these fools? Come back and leave comments on an actual argument-provoking post. This is a post paying tribute to a man who died performing his duty in an obligation he felt was required. This isn’t an argument post on whether or not the Iraqi war is just. There have plenty of those in the past and plenty will come in the future.
Bless you Pat Tillman and all of your brothers and sisters who have fallen.
Amen, Travis. Amen.
I have been reading these posts and am disgusted by the attitudes of some of the people here. Tillman, and every soldier deserves our respect at the very least. They may have joined the military for a variety of reasons, some noble, some not, but they are all doing a job most of us (certainly me) are unwilling to do.
I have said here before, I am against the Iraq war, and the Bush Administration, but the soldiers are doing their duty, and I respect that.
I must say though, it is a little disturbing to have people that agree with you on some issues be such wack-jobs (Jeremy, Tim, etc.).
RIP Tillman, and your fallen brothers, and thanks.
Radley,
It saddens me that as this site has increased in traffic so have the number of cranks, interlopers, and loudmouths.
All good things must come to an end I suppose.
You fuckers. Even if you were against the war in afganistan, which no one except kucinich and nader were against, don’t badmouth a guy who volunteered to go serve his country. Most people in the army either need the money or a free ride in college, but Tillman was driven by pure love for his country. He wouldnât even do a TV interview when he decided to enlist. So all of you bastards can go fuck yourselves. Sorry about the language, but I couldnât believe it when I started reading the comments board.
mark s. - loudmoths behind a computer screen, that is. If any one of these so-called “tough guys” were in a room full of marines discussing the same subject, my guess is that some panties would be getting wet. That’s what is so sad about the internet - you can be the biggest pansy and post anonymous crap and get away with it. And most of those who do only do because they haven’t the cajones to say a damn word when it comes down to looking someone in the eye and telling them what you think.
Danno49: I was not being sarcastic. Your post was well written and thoughtful. Personally I think you ought to submit it to the editor of your local newspaper. (Provided you don’t already work for the newspaper.)
Anvil: That is the nicest thing anyone has said about anything I have written in a long time. I am feeling kind of weird about it though since it was meant as a redirect to the posters on this thread as well as a tribute to the man.
No, I don’t work for a newspaper. LOL!
Tillman’s willingness to place his body and his life between what he valued and what he judged threatened it is worthy of deep respect.
JTK — A-freakin’-MEN!
Travis –
Thank you for illustrating the point.
Danno49: I’m w/ Anvil on this.
Thank you & Cheers! That was very touching.
As far as the crazies go -
It has already been said but just please, get over it. This is not the place for your hate. MOVE ON.
go on..it’s ok.
Travis –
After reading my last post I realized I wasn’t very clear. You didn’t illustrate the point, you became the subject of my point.
Travis is right. We should all be scared of marines. Very, very scared. They are extremely dangerous. If you’re ever in a situation with a marine, do exactly what he tells you and do not look him in the eye. DO NOT tell him your opinion on anything. DO NOT resist his strength, he will not hesitate to kill you.
JTK-
awesome
Holy cow, what a thread this has been!
Being against the war is one thing but…well I think all has been said before. It’s still amazing how many there are that just HATE this country and all it stands for. Certainly, no country is perfect but to demonize the very country that gives the individual so much freedom and opportunity is just insane.
And DANNO, there are WAY more of us that share you feelings than don’t.
meek
Jeremy Tim an Ray are crazy because their wrong and, umm…USA! USA! USA!
All you hatemongers need to move on.
And by hatemongers I mean anyone who disagrees with me.
I hate you all so goddamn much!
I hope the hatemongers lose their sons in a future foreign war. Thank God there will be more.
haha
Jeremy,
“All this “he died for your freedom” bullshit is TIRED. He died ASSAULTING my freedom by inflaming Islamic nutballs even more than the US had already succeeded in doing. But oh wait, I forgot, they attacked NYC because we eat McDonalds and love freedom. At least, that’s what the Texas Taliban wants you to think.
Anvil, you are a typical military brainwashee who lost the best years of your life making minimum wage and getting gangrene in a VA hospital, so you instill a sacred purpose to the filthy business of mass murder for the State and its cronies. Afghanistan never attacked the US and couldn’t have if it wanted to. So get your buzzcut head out of your red-white-and-blue ass and WAKE UP — anything NFL boy did “fer freedom” was a mite too late for the thousands killed when planes flew into the fucking WTC, ya know? All he’s doing is making Muslims hate America more, and for good reason.
Ted Bundy also “willingly gave up everything for something he believed in” — he liked to kill young women, and he gave his life for that. Is that honorable? No. I bet Mr. Patriotic sent a few chunks of lead into the skulls of a few young women himself. But they’re ragheads right? Who cares about them!?”
I don’t intend this as an objection to you posting this on any public forum, but I’m curious: Why is it that you guys don’t publish any material like this at antiwar.com? It seems very much on topic. Is this kind of material unwelcome at antiwar.com for some reason?
BloggerLand HateFest
Matthew Barganier with an interesting column on the warmonger obsession with Iraqi blogger Salam Pax that turned into hatred when he stopped doing their bidding for them. I can’t say that I missed this stuff over the last few months,…
I just showed up and am somewhat frightened. Jeremy makes a good point: just because someone dies for a cause that he believes in does not make his cause right or just. This does not impugn the bravery or honor or intentions of the fallen. The debate is (or should be) over whether the cause that Tillman and other American servicemen are dying for is legitimate, not whether Tillman was a super guy or not.
Judging from his earlier posts, I’m sure Roach will want someone to kick my ass.
“I just showed up and am somewhat frightened. Jeremy makes a good point: just because someone dies for a cause that he believes in does not make his cause right or just.”
That’s perfectly true.
“This does not impugn the bravery or honor or intentions of the fallen.”
True again, but how about:
“As far as I’m concerned, this just proves the perfection of natural selection.”
or
“No. I bet Mr. Patriotic sent a few chunks of lead into the skulls of a few young women himself. But they’re ragheads right? Who cares about them!?”
Or how about this characterization:
“So yes, it sucks that people die. But I’m not gonna cry for professional killers.”
Somehow I don’t think Tillman was in it for the money.
Sapienza: “I will continue to cheer any defeat US troops meet.”
Pursuant to a recent comment thread here, I asked posters at anti-state.com whether any of them wanted to acknowledge cheering on those fighting against U.S. forces in Iraq. Jeremy
I posted something a little more sympathetic about Tillman on another forum, and I’ll be fair and post it here:
The reason I give people like Tillman respect is because he would have been a tremendous asset to the principles in which I believe. It’s not like he’d ever heard of libertarianism and chose to blow it off: with the knowledge he’d been given in life, he drew a conclusion about what’s politically right and wrong and then did something about it. In that sense I am his exact opposite: I disagree with him politically and I’m yet not really doing much about it at all. I sure as hell wouldn’t walk away from getting paid $3 million at a job I’d dreamed of doing all my life.
There are people who are statists because they hate people, and then there are people who are statists because they love people and have been taught only an unhealthy way of expressing it. What Tillman and I have in common is that we both want(ed) to do the right thing. That might not seem like much, but PLENTY of people have malicious designs on the world. I’d have shot Tillman myself if he’d stormed into my house in full get-up, but I’d have considered it just as much of a tragedy that our differences of opinion on the matter of aggression had been taken to their inevitable conclusion: death.
I guess what I’m saying is that whenever we fail to reach people of integrity in time, it’s cause for mourning, not just their death but the loss to humanity of yet another potential hero.
Roach shouldnât be taken seriously. He is a closet asexual who lies that he has a girlfriend. I know him from home. He couldn’t get laid in a whore house. He thinks patriotism is only when white people get others to fight for him.
Roach: eat one. You loser.
Tillman IS a hero. Hero’s never die. If we could all have half the balls that man did this world would be a much better place. How dare some of you little pricks marginalize this man’s ultimate sacrifice. Its easy to sit back safe and sound behind your keyboard and spew leftist bullshit isn’t it? We in the military will protect your right to say it, but we never said we wouldn’t bust your balls for saying it either. I sincerely hope that one day you kids will understand why it is that some us have tears in our eyes during the national anthem or at the sight of our flag flying high. Because it was all paid for in blood from men whose shadow we’re not worthy of walking in.
dont you all get it pat tillman died for you to have the freedom to say what ever you are posting on this board.
The United States of America has the most tyrannical and oppressive government on the face of the Earth.
Except for all the others.
I know this country isn’t perfect. I know that there’s a lot of liberty that we ought to have that we don’t have. But damnit, when it comes down to choosing a side between the United States and the Taliban or Saddam Hussein or any regime in that area, it isn’t even a close decision. He didn’t have a completely free society to fight for; he had the United States, and in the absence of any better regime, he’s still one of the good guys for fighting for this one, regardless of how any of us think that it ought to be better and more worthy of his efforts.
God bless Pat Tillman.
Ok ok ok… Regardless of how you feel about the US foreign policy Mr. Tillman was an exemplary person and an exemplary American. Playing 4 years in college, getting the PAC10 Defensive Player of the Year award, and graduating summa cum laude with a 3.8 GPA are all admirable achievements in my book. Also not only did he decline the 3 million for the Army but he also declined 9 million from the St. Louis Rams when he was first drafted so that he could play in his home state of Arizona. Obviously loyalty was a main part of his being. Also he rose from a late round draft pick to breaking team records on defense. And even though some of us may doubt the cause he fought and died for, he never did and deserves kudos upon kudos for that.
Tim Swanson is a traitor. Look him up.oh…and a puss.
stupid git, come to my party, I serv free beer to military, nad hugger, u would be most welcome to spout all ya wanted
T J Madison, I suggest you listen less to others and actually study the Constitution and what the Congress did. God gave you a brain, he wants you to use it.
Tim Swanson, I really don’t think too many people really care what you think. It is just there is a thing as tact and you didn’t display any very well. Maybe others are just trying to help you.
I think that it is inconsistant to claim to be against (the) war yet claim to have respect for those that *volunteer* to prosecute it.
If one was for free immigration, it would be odd for him to admire the bravery of those that shoot immigrants coming into the country.
Those that are against the war on drugs don’t normally admire the heroic DEA.
In situations where the brave willingly perform evil, pity is the mildest emotion I could muster. I would be fighting back scorn and ridicule.
Well said, mercedesrules.
mercedesrules said, “I think that it is inconsistant to claim to be against (the) war yet claim to have respect for those that *volunteer* to prosecute it.”
Makes sense to me. Respecting an enemy even while trying to defeat him is a very old concept. How much easier is it to respect someone who is not an enemy, but merely holds an opposing ideology?
Some of the remarks on this thread are beneath contempt. Surely, even the most hardcore isolationist libertarian, apart from outright pacifists, should realise that we need men like Pat Tillman (may he rest in peace) to defend a country from attack. In case some have forgotten, the Taliban in Afghanistan were sheltering those who helped carry out 9/11. If that was not a just cause for action, what the heck is?
When the late Ayn Rand delivered one of her most famous speeches, “Philosophy, Who Needs It,” she did so at West Point Military Academy. Her decision to choose such a venue was not an accident.
Count me among those who consider Pat Tillman a legit hero. Dude gave up millions playing a game to work for pennies doing what he believed.
The world has felt a great loss.
Where do you think you know me from Rich? Where did I go to HS?
Absolutely mortified by the opening comments to this post…Pat Tillman followed his heart, instead of his wallet with the intent to protect all of our asses. No matter your opinion of our war situation, he was a true patriot.
MR,
I never suggested on need or ought to accept Tillman’s participation as a package deal. I pointed to one thing I considered worth of respect.
The goals of preventing immigration or drug dealing can’t be justified at all, but the goal of going after terrorists to prevent another 9/11 can.
Quoting roach:
I think people like you are parasites. You don’t realize that all this shit around you–freedom, wealth, national security etc.–it’s your inheritance. We’re born indebted to this society…
Fucking communist! I was not born to shoulder anyone’s debt but my own. I was not born to fight another man’s battle. I will fight only my own.
The only emotion I can offer Mr. Tillman is sadness. Sadness for a life wasted on a lost cause. May his loss of life be a lesson to all the other misguided souls who believe the are fighting for your and my freedom.
-sed_nick
Quoting Chris on April 26, 2004:
Pat Tillman followed his heart, instead of his wallet with the intent to protect all of our asses. No matter your opinion of our war situation, he was a true patriot.
And what did his sacrifice net him? What good did it do? Are you incrimentally more free this week because a young man died last week?
Quoting greg winans on April 24, 2004:
dont you all get it pat tillman died for you to have the freedom to say what ever you are posting on this board.
Don’t you get it that he lost his life for nothing more than the furtherance of empire? To say he died for freedom of speech is foolish.
-sed
Nick don’t you realize
1) We’re part of a community with a common interest in our safety from terrorist attack? Why should a Cop help you for example if you call police? Or your neighbors from a marauding band. People thousands of years ago recognized the need for some kind of collective action to resist barbarians, both within and without their society.
2) Incremental value of sacrifice? That individualism would lead to no one volutneering at all for the armed forces. Then, someone with the good sense to fill his people with organization and community spirit, could easily enslave us. Think late Roman Empire, the influence of Mafia Gangs, etc.
3) And what would you do genius to respond to 9/11 attacks which originated in Afghanistan? What would you do in face of Korean nuclear blackmail?
4) If you’re some anarcho-capitalist, can you point to a single succesfsul example? Or is this all just a figment of your imagination.
3)
Here’s what I don’t understand about hard-core individualist libertarians. Even the business and contract world require cooperation of various sorts that hard-core individualism would undermine.
For example,
1) Why not commit fraud in a transaction with a low probability of recurrance, like a rural gas station or hotel?
2) Why not appear to be working hard but actually not work hard on the job. Why do you those with whom you contract deserve honesty and good faith?
3) Why should police or military ever risk their own lives, especially when they face near certain death. Isn’t all the patriotic and duty stuff just propaganda. If people believed as you believe, could wars ever be won by those who believed as such against an enemy willing to die for a perceived common purpose?
4) Isn’t all morality in a way a type of overcoming the tragedies of the commons and “last player problems” that we all face. For example, since ancient times hospitality to strangers was drilled into people because the liklihood and possibility of abuse was all to easy and underenforced.
5) Why do people, unlike you hard-core so-called individualists and anarcho-capiatlists, seem motivated by other more communal concerns like family, tribe, race, nation, neighborhood etc. Why does your message largely fall on deaf ears?
6) Why shouldn’t small groups of individuals seeking their self-interest use the government to do so when it’s convenient and efficient, e.g., standard rent seeking.
He died to defend our country.
So what’s the freaken deal about joking with the topic. Shut those people’s mouthes who disrespect his death!
Pat Tillman was a great American!
Lots of losers in these posts, I see. Good thing there are Men like Pat Tillman to pick up the slack for you pukes, wasters of space and oxygen…
We need weasels like you, however, to point out to our children so that they do not become the dreck that you have.
p.s. didn’t Dad love you, or play ball with you? See you on the couch, waste bag!
God Bless Pat Tillman, he might not look kindly on you….
Quote from roach:
Nick don’t you realize…
1) I’m all for community, family, the children, etc. If our common interest is reducing the likelyhood of another terrorist attack, you guys sure have a funny way of going about it. Poking the lion with a stick is likely to anger the lion, regardless of how big your stick is. As for cops, they are part of the problem.
2) I don’t believe that individualism would lead to no one volutneering at all for the armed forces. Plenty of individualists are involved with militias. I’m all for defensive action. I don’t believe either Afghanistan or Iraq were defensive actions. The hijackers were largely Saudis, NOT Afghanis or Iraqis.
3) I don’t claim to be a genius, but my response to 911 wouldn’t have involved toppling the Taliban. As far as N. Korea, do you seriously think that podunk communist bastard poses a threat?
4) Anarcho-capitalism. Several successful examples exist: early Iceland, present day Somalia, my household, interactions with some of my co-workers. Anarcho-capitalism is even more delicate than democracy. But it is the only system I’ve found that truly values freedom. Are you trying to tell me that current US society is “successful”? This is as close to socialism as you can get without calling it such.
Any other strawmen you’d like me to set fire to, Roach? Oh and thanks for deleting my post on your blog. You wouldn’t want this subversiveness to sully up your pleasant dreamworld would you?
-sed
roach writes:
6) Why shouldn’t small groups of individuals seeking their self-interest use the government to do so when it’s convenient and efficient, e.g., standard rent seeking.
Great. Do whatever makes you feel good. Just don’t force me to play your silly games. And you better not confiscate my wages to do it.
Some day, Roach, your government will fail you (I would say it already has). When that Ponzi scheme tumbles, what have you got? You. An individual with skills and a family to feed. The smallest indivisible unit.
Good luck to you.
-sed
Sed Nick, as I pointed out earlier, unless you are a pacifist, we will need folk to volunteer for protect their community and country. That is a fact. Put aside what you think about the war in Iraq or Afghanistan - the point is, defence will be needed. We will need people like Pat Tillman and his comrades. Even the most mutton-headed anarcho-capitalist should understand that.
What a sad indictment on America…a man turns away from fame and fortune to serve his country in a foreign conflict..and pays the ultimate price. And his death is used by his fellow ccitizens as a vehicle for questioning US foreign policy.
Worse still, others show little, if any respect
for his sacrifice with flippant remarks…Ted Bundy…are you serious?
Sean Australia
1st time that I,ve seen this site.
roach - “If you’re some anarcho-capitalist, can you point to a single succesfsul example? Or is this all just a figment of your imagination. ”
If you’re some limited government advocate, can you point to a single successful example?
Didn’t think so.
Nick, I didn’t delete your posts on my blog. They should still be there.
Billy Jay, sure, United States 1776 to 1932. Huge expansion of wealth, power, innovation, population etc. It may not have held itself in such a state forever, but I think we had a good run and we’re still better off than Europe.
But hey you can always take Somalia.
Nick I think you miss my point on the military.
It’s always in your individual best interest to shirk and not risk your life, but appear to risk your life and do your job in military serivce. (You know, Glaucon’s ring and all that) Under Libertarian views it can never be in your interest to clear a minefield or jump on a grenade but such actions (and obedience to such orders) are necessary to win wars. Read George Washington’s criticism of the milita; when the shit hit the fan they mostly ran away. I suggest that even libertarians recognize some notions of honor and duty and self-respect, which are necessary to get things done and to hold society together, even a voluntarily arranged society.
And as for your “just don’t confiscate my wealth to do it,” ummm, we do it every day. Nothing wrong with that so long as it’s devoted to public purposes and not to redistribution. But you’re asking people not to pursue their individual self interest becuase of an empty threat which amounts to honor, morality of individualism , etc. And we’re back where we started, because I ask people to forgo such individual self interest out of an englightened concern for a system which permits one (and more importantly one’s progeny) to pursue wealth in a manner safe from internal and external threats. But if you disagree with me there is always Somalia!
I would remind posters that Pat Tillman did exactly what he wanted to do…regardless of the impact his death would have on his wife and other family. When one does exactly what one prefers, it’s called being selfish.
He did nothing for me; he did not know me.
I find many of these remarks very tasteless. He had a conviction and beliefs and went after it. Those who comment against him can not even carry his boots.
For those who just have to badmouth Pat Tillman, I shall quote Ambrose Bierce:
“The Brave Respect the Brave,
The Brave Respect the Dead,
But You, You choose that tool
Of the coward’s trade, the Ass’s Jaw
And wave it o’er a Hero’s’s Grave!”
Bierce, a Union Army Veteran penned the above in response to a proposal to suppress the decorating of Confederate graves. He could find valorous honor in those who had repeatedly tried to kill him. He is representative of those who know war.
All antiwar movements and groups have been and are defined by those who delude themselves into believing that their ideology relieves them of the natural law constraints that bind all men. Pacifists they are not because genuine pacifists know that heroic conduct often comes from people they do not like doing things of which they disapprove.
Me, I shall continue my warmongering ways. Those that do not like this can either (a) remain silent, (b) mouth impotencies or (c) engage me in mortal combat. I give you your choice, which is a heck of a lot more than you are willing to give me.
And I shall honor Pat Tillman as I see fit. Those that disapprove are irrelevant.
Dave
After reading some ofthese posts I am totally disgusted! As a former member of the military I am appalled that I actually served to defend some of these people. You can mark my words - the day I pick up a weapon to defend these people it will be a cold day in hell! I am proud of my service to my country, but I am not very proud of my fellow countrymen.
You motherfuckers are all very strange.
I guess that is the problem with you being American.
I don’t think commiting suicide in a war is big or manly. Stop living your lives by proxy through de big mon like this guy.
Hi i have been in the army for 10 years and have never hear of such shit, i am sorry for tillmans death, but i am also sorry for the death of over 2,000 other soldiers that i have served with, they the media and the people need to leave it alone, what about those soldiers who died the day after tillman, they were a different kind of hero also, it pisses me off that you see statments come from the white house with such sorrow for one soldier, but the other soldiers get a one line sentence saying “4 soldiers die in Iraq today” please media leave it alone!!!!
Also i dont believe this shit about, what the news says they dont know why tillman joined the army, he said “because his family has served and he feels like he has not done a damn thing” well, in statements he has also said that he and his wife talked about joining the army because of Sep 11, well i think that is a sorry excuse to joing the army, you should not need a reason to join the army, media leave it alone!!!
What a bunch of pussies you people are. Sad excuses for humans.
2,000 Dead Soldiers Chris? I don’t think the entire US military has lost that many including Grenada, Somalia, GWI, and OEF/OIF. So what the hell are you talking about? Are you even in the military?
I have been visiting this blog for the last two years, and the postings on this thread are the most vitriolic, angry, and illogical arguments I have seen here. (Not to mention the name calling and resorting to obsenities).
There is obviously no changing the minds of people like Nick. Our nation is at war. We have been attacked by Islamic radialism, and the discourse and debate on how to react is tearing this country apart. This is not about “American Empire”. It is about survival. Unfortunately our world is such that only the strong projection of force can win. Being “nice” or giving up our wealth to other nations will not bring us peace. Only through the defeat of our enemies can true peace be achieved.
I have read this thing for about 4 months…..what is hilarious…is that most of these anti establishment f#cks are spoiled little rich/middle class angry punks with little or no attention paid to them since birth..the ones you pass in the hallways in school and punch in the mouth for being so pathetic. Let them sput the crap they do…all together they have the combined power of a dead D cell battery…
Pat Tillman was the man…these idiots wouldn;t understand it..the only thing they have done for humanity is hide away from society behind a PC Screen and not procreate….thanks guys…or whatever you self proclaimed anarchists are called….
“There is obviously no changing the minds of people like Nick.”
Lucky for you that in a democracy you don’t need to change his mind, you can just bill him anyway.
JTK said, “The goals of preventing immigration or drug dealing can’t be justified at all, but the goal of going after terrorists to prevent another 9/11 can.”
O.K., but not by me. Terror is a tactic; it’s hard to win a “war on a tactic”. And, soldiers make cruddy policemen.
“There is obviously no changing the minds of people like Nick.”
I did change my mind once. I was one signature away from going to the Air Force Academy. Then I realized that my individual life was worth more to me whole than the sacrificing my life for some flaghumping drill seargent or some notion of “duty to country”.
Pat Tillman lived his life how he saw fit. I will live my life how I see fit.
Shane on April 27, 2004 05:01 PM writes:
“…is that most of these anti establishment f#cks are spoiled little rich/middle class angry punks with little or no attention paid to them since birth..the ones you pass in the hallways in school and punch in the mouth for being so pathetic.”
Thanks for the psychological evaluation. But you are wrong. And your anger clouds your reasoning ability. I grew up poor. I was raised by a mother who very loving and who encouraged me to read and think for myself. Yes I did get punched in the mouth in middle school for being smart. But I defended myself with words, and when those failed, fists.
I am not afraid to fight, but I realize that violence and war rarely settle anything.
You can have your “offensive” war and manufacture your dead heroes like Pat Tillman. Just don’t steal my wages to finance it and don’t expect me to bathe in your flag humping patriotism.
-sed nick
…ummmm, Monkey Butlers? Anyone??
“don’t steal my wages” Nick.
Or what? You’ll whine. All of this anarchic/libertarian nonsesne is just moralizing. There is no reason it should be persuasive to those that disagree with you. We’ll still “steal” your wages and you’ll do nothing about it.
Free societies need a middle class committed to liberalism. Instead libertarians encoruage us to import more poor people, and we get FDR, matricula consulars, bilingual education, reconquista, and the 9/11 terrorists. But at least you can be purists!
http://anti-state.com/forum/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=9629
When enough people get sick and tired of tax slavery, they’ll refuse to work. Then your whole plantation will collapse.
Really, roach, do you enjoy paying your taxes? How about paying mine too? Because I don’t see the worth in it. I get very little for what I pay out.
-sed
“(roach) All of this anarchic/libertarian nonsesne is just moralizing. There is no reason it should be persuasive to those that disagree with you. We’ll still “steal” your wages and you’ll do nothing about it.”
So, you are on the side of the immoral? I wouldn’t brag about it.
“Free societies need a middle class committed to liberalism.”
So, what’s wrong with Nick trying to win a few converts with strong arguments?
It has been said many times before but it bears repeating.
You are free to leave this country at any time.
Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.
Johnny’s waving bye-bye to ya.
Quite frankly, none of you people treading on this man’s memory is worthy of living here for the simple fact that you do not respect the blood, sweat and other toils not to mention their very lives freely given by other repsonsible indiviuals so you may have a free place to live. Is it truly free? Hell, no. But I would much rather live here than any where else. I like my garbage being picked up, my mail delivered, health care when I need it and the fire and police departments!
If Somalia is so f*cking great, go live there. I have friends in the service and my grandfathers served WW2.
Go hit the bong again, assholes.
Anyone talkin bout Pat Tillman’s death or the sweet land of liberty is unpatriotic, I mean they shouldn’t even have freedom of speech, civil rights or nothin. the initials PT should be put on every NFL football uniform; the least those other overpaid, non-enlisters can do. I say we reinstate the draft and start with the NFL; those big, strong warriors would be perfect for us to FINISH THE JOB IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN! We don’t need any whiny, sissy bitchers complaining about civil liberties and all that other BS. Let’s lock them up at Gitmo; let freedom ring for their ass there, bastards! Anyone talkin about “I disagree with the war” or namby-pamby shit about “Look at the number of casualties”; please do one thing, shut the hell up. WE WON WORLD I AND II, VIETNAM, and KOREA; we’re gonna pull this V out in IRAQ; no runnin, that shit is for cowards. If it takes 100 or 1000 or 1 million or dammit 1 billion people, we can’t fail, it’s not an option, cause we need a beacon of democracy in the Middle East, forget Africa (they’re a lost cause), the Middle East is where the terrorists are coming from. Plus we can’t lose, we’re the superpower, the hyperpower, the fucking omegapower, nobody can stop us. I’m gonna turn on Fox and watch the rest of our boys give all those who oppose American might and liberty hell, yep, we got plenty of bullets for their ass. Tasteless, talking about our boy Tillman, why he should be named our National Hero, Pat Tillman Day, damnit put his damn face on the flag (i’d vote for it), cause he fought for freedom and democracy and God and honor and bravery and loyalty and sacrifice and the American fucking way; all you bastards dissin him, you’re all cowards, even traitors! USA, FUCKIN USA, USA! red, white, and blue to the core. Ride with Bush till I die! You liberal pussies are always talkin about shit that’s wrong, just be quiet, don’t say shit, hell, the ‘conomies doin great and were winning the fight (taking the fight to the enemies, those SOBS), huntin down one by one like deer in Yellowstone; pledge allegiance to this great country tis of Thee, or leave, get the hell out! we don’t want ya, complaining, complaining, griping, moaning…Once again, Thanks Pat Tillman, my son’s gonna be named Patrick, i’ll remember you always in my heart. VICTORY ONLY VICTORY
Say what you want, and I’ll say what I want.
Capiche, f*ck-stain?
Danno49, you’re a coward, not a hawk like portray yourself, just a dove in the closet waiting come out at anytime. You are a fake, all your yappin about my hero Pat Tillman is irrevelant, unless you state here and now that you are going to uphold his memory and enlist in the Army today. If not, you are a loser! What a chump you would be praising a good man lost if you don’t want to go fight for freedom and democracy yourself (just sit here and talk), like Pat. Please, if you want a cheerleader, there’s tryouts in plenty of non life-threatening sports. If not, grow some nuts, get off your computer, and fight for our country and freedom. Please, if you have something to say, Peacenik, start off by not embarrasing or exposing yourself as the liberal pansy with a hawk face that you are.
Capiche?
VICTORY ONLY VICTORY
Aaaaahhhhh, your mudda’s brazeer!
We all have our reasons to serve or not. My hat I take off and bow, raise my jar to salute comrades fallen and who will fall ’till the day peace will reign or mankind be extinct.
Too long a time has gone since someone posted a qoute of Heinlein’s.
“Morals - all correct moral rules - derive from the instinct to survive; moral behavior is survival above the individual level - as in the father dying to save his children.”
or why not
“Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards.”
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