<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Risk, Security, and Liberty</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:07:18 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: xenical online</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41372</link>
		<dc:creator>xenical online</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jun 2006 19:55:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41372</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.blogcity.com/wass/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;buy xenical&lt;/a&gt; Xen-770009122-345566</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.blogcity.com/wass/" rel="nofollow">buy xenical</a> Xen-770009122-345566</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bob</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41370</link>
		<dc:creator>bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:36:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41370</guid>
		<description>Joker--Yep OBL was from Saudi--I forget what country was Timothy McViegh from?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joker&#8211;Yep OBL was from Saudi&#8211;I forget what country was Timothy McViegh from?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Myers</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41369</link>
		<dc:creator>David Myers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:36:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41369</guid>
		<description>Risk = probability of event occuring * potential loss.

There&#039;s a serious problem with this analysis.  It is this - you have to take into account the POTENTIAL magnitude of the threat, not just actual deaths.  E.g. I work in IT security.  I have to consider risk assessments on a daily basis.  So, I have a datacenter.  Chances of a tornado, etc. leveling the place are infintesimal, but not zero.  So if I accepted the argument in the article, I would recommend no money spent on hotsites, backup, etc.  After all, this has never happened so the stats for datacenters leveled (analogous to deaths per year stats) would be zero.

However, in reality, even though the chances of the loss are low the POTENTIAL consequences are so devestating (loss of data, equipment, etc.) that having recovery procedures is justifiable, even absolutely necessary.  In fact, a corporation without backup/disaster recovery procedures would and should be hit with due diligence lawsuits from shareholders, etc.  Many industries are required by law (banks, health care)to implement hot sites, backups, etc.

Terrorist attacks are a similar situation - the chance of a nuclear strike wiping out millions of people and sparking a war that could kill tens of millions more is admittedly small.  But it is non-zero, especially if we do nothing about the threat.  So, a &quot;risk assessment&quot; would justify, even demand, serious expensive measures be taken to mitigate this risk.  

So risk is actually high, even though number of deaths per year appears to be low.  Deaths per year also ignores the number of deaths that have been prevented by agressive action against terrorist organizations and states worldwide.

Terrorist attack = low to moderate probability * absolutely devestating consequences to all civilization = 
v. high risk

Auto accident = high probability * very
small loss (on a nation wide scale) = low risk (again on the scale of a nation of hundreds of millions of people)

If we want to do an actual risk analysis, clearly terrorist attacks must have a very high priority compared to auto accidents and government priorities are in fact well placed using traditional risk analysis techniques.  The idea that risk assessment would indicate otherwise is simply false and belies a serious lack of knowledge of statistics and risk analysis in general.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Risk = probability of event occuring * potential loss.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a serious problem with this analysis.  It is this &#8211; you have to take into account the POTENTIAL magnitude of the threat, not just actual deaths.  E.g. I work in IT security.  I have to consider risk assessments on a daily basis.  So, I have a datacenter.  Chances of a tornado, etc. leveling the place are infintesimal, but not zero.  So if I accepted the argument in the article, I would recommend no money spent on hotsites, backup, etc.  After all, this has never happened so the stats for datacenters leveled (analogous to deaths per year stats) would be zero.</p>
<p>However, in reality, even though the chances of the loss are low the POTENTIAL consequences are so devestating (loss of data, equipment, etc.) that having recovery procedures is justifiable, even absolutely necessary.  In fact, a corporation without backup/disaster recovery procedures would and should be hit with due diligence lawsuits from shareholders, etc.  Many industries are required by law (banks, health care)to implement hot sites, backups, etc.</p>
<p>Terrorist attacks are a similar situation &#8211; the chance of a nuclear strike wiping out millions of people and sparking a war that could kill tens of millions more is admittedly small.  But it is non-zero, especially if we do nothing about the threat.  So, a &#8220;risk assessment&#8221; would justify, even demand, serious expensive measures be taken to mitigate this risk.  </p>
<p>So risk is actually high, even though number of deaths per year appears to be low.  Deaths per year also ignores the number of deaths that have been prevented by agressive action against terrorist organizations and states worldwide.</p>
<p>Terrorist attack = low to moderate probability * absolutely devestating consequences to all civilization =<br />
v. high risk</p>
<p>Auto accident = high probability * very<br />
small loss (on a nation wide scale) = low risk (again on the scale of a nation of hundreds of millions of people)</p>
<p>If we want to do an actual risk analysis, clearly terrorist attacks must have a very high priority compared to auto accidents and government priorities are in fact well placed using traditional risk analysis techniques.  The idea that risk assessment would indicate otherwise is simply false and belies a serious lack of knowledge of statistics and risk analysis in general.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41368</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2004 15:52:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41368</guid>
		<description>Looks like a lot of fear mongering Bush lovers in here.  I&#039;ll have to remember to keep it simple so you can cross check with your RNC talking points.

No matter how tight security is.  No matter how many civil liberties we are robbed of by Congress, if a terrorist is willing to give his own life to take the lives of others there is little that can be done to stop him.

Why piss our money down a bottomless pit.  The region (Middle East) has been unstable for a thousand years or more.  It will probably be unstable for a thousand years to come.  Unless, of course you like the idea of long occupations under a foreign rule. (American Revolution, anybody?  Bueller?)  

It seems as though Peter and the like are the ones who have forgotten.  Forgotten the reasons why we fought for independence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like a lot of fear mongering Bush lovers in here.  I&#8217;ll have to remember to keep it simple so you can cross check with your RNC talking points.</p>
<p>No matter how tight security is.  No matter how many civil liberties we are robbed of by Congress, if a terrorist is willing to give his own life to take the lives of others there is little that can be done to stop him.</p>
<p>Why piss our money down a bottomless pit.  The region (Middle East) has been unstable for a thousand years or more.  It will probably be unstable for a thousand years to come.  Unless, of course you like the idea of long occupations under a foreign rule. (American Revolution, anybody?  Bueller?)  </p>
<p>It seems as though Peter and the like are the ones who have forgotten.  Forgotten the reasons why we fought for independence.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joker</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41367</link>
		<dc:creator>Joker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 20:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41367</guid>
		<description>Michael, Michelle, Rich, I hope you are right and that the Muslims who become better off as a result of being invaded and &#039;set straight&#039;, so to speak, will be grateful.  But, these individuals do not worry me.
Don&#039;t forget OBL is from Saudi Arabia - a relatively friendly nation towards the US with no serious offensive capability or crazed government (relatively speaking anyway).  Yet, OBL, the psychopath, was born and raised there and it didn&#039;t help his mind set at all.  
My point is that regardless of their origin, a Muslim terrorist wannabe will find a way to blow you up if he wants to.  Giving them freedom will do little to change their ways.  These freaks must go extinct, and how do you do that?
- certainly not through appeasement or by rolling over to expose our soft underbelly, but by specifically targeting them like Israel seems to be doing lately.  Invading entire nations only fuels the fire of their cause, provides justification (vendetta), opportunity, and costs a fortune.  One has to be smart and efficient about it is all I&#039;m saying.
If the Iraqi invasion becomes the &#039;bitch-slap&#039; that puts the arab street back into normalcy and on the path to civility - great, I&#039;ll be the first to praise it.  If it doesn&#039;t accomplish that goal, we might be faced with the Pakistan (in future, Iran) situation more often, where a nation secretly develops a nuclear deterrent capability, making itself immune from any &#039;bitch-slapping&#039; and free to spread any kind of vile terrorism it wants.
There has to be a smarter way to deal with this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, Michelle, Rich, I hope you are right and that the Muslims who become better off as a result of being invaded and &#8216;set straight&#8217;, so to speak, will be grateful.  But, these individuals do not worry me.<br />
Don&#8217;t forget OBL is from Saudi Arabia &#8211; a relatively friendly nation towards the US with no serious offensive capability or crazed government (relatively speaking anyway).  Yet, OBL, the psychopath, was born and raised there and it didn&#8217;t help his mind set at all.<br />
My point is that regardless of their origin, a Muslim terrorist wannabe will find a way to blow you up if he wants to.  Giving them freedom will do little to change their ways.  These freaks must go extinct, and how do you do that?<br />
- certainly not through appeasement or by rolling over to expose our soft underbelly, but by specifically targeting them like Israel seems to be doing lately.  Invading entire nations only fuels the fire of their cause, provides justification (vendetta), opportunity, and costs a fortune.  One has to be smart and efficient about it is all I&#8217;m saying.<br />
If the Iraqi invasion becomes the &#8216;bitch-slap&#8217; that puts the arab street back into normalcy and on the path to civility &#8211; great, I&#8217;ll be the first to praise it.  If it doesn&#8217;t accomplish that goal, we might be faced with the Pakistan (in future, Iran) situation more often, where a nation secretly develops a nuclear deterrent capability, making itself immune from any &#8216;bitch-slapping&#8217; and free to spread any kind of vile terrorism it wants.<br />
There has to be a smarter way to deal with this.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Frank N</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41366</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank N</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41366</guid>
		<description>Rich-

Hi

The Arab street did not erupt because they are becoming afraid of us. Not some nicey,nice humane traits. Look how they took to the streets cheering on 9/11 in Palestine...Either our media is being &#039;selective&#039; on the images shown to us or the Arab world figured out that the USA is serious unlike the Clinton years. My guess is the latter seeing as Syria told Uday and Qusay they were not welcome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rich-</p>
<p>Hi</p>
<p>The Arab street did not erupt because they are becoming afraid of us. Not some nicey,nice humane traits. Look how they took to the streets cheering on 9/11 in Palestine&#8230;Either our media is being &#8216;selective&#8217; on the images shown to us or the Arab world figured out that the USA is serious unlike the Clinton years. My guess is the latter seeing as Syria told Uday and Qusay they were not welcome.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rich Casebolt</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41365</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Casebolt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41365</guid>
		<description>Joker -- how many Iraqis are really lining up to join Al Quada?

A lot of the unrest there is perpetrated by foreigners who have come there to pursue the jihad against us.

And, are those Iraqis &quot;in line&quot; pursuing this with the best interests of the Iraqi people at heart -- or are these the dead-enders who want to renew their bloodstained meal ticket, under another name?

The Arab street didn&#039;t erupt after we took Iraq, despite the predictions to the contrary of those who share your viewpoint.  The Arab peoples are human beings first -- when you show them a way out of the brutality that has overtaken their culture, they will take it.

We can either act to deny the small minority of virulent Islamofascists the state resources that would make 911 look like a fender-bender ... or do nothing, let them hijack those resources from ordinary Arabs, and feed their resolve with the perception of our weakness.

In fact, they can (and will) also gain more allies when their descriptions of us (as soft and decadent) are reinforced by our own passivity.  I could be wrong, &lt;b&gt;but I assert that this passivity will drive more Arabs to join the Islamofascists as &quot;the winning team&quot;, than will join them out of spite for resolute action on our part.&lt;/b&gt;

We persistently focus on OUR conduct, as if our actions and Al Quada&#039;s are somehow morally equivalent.  My question is, &lt;b&gt;what right do these Islamofascists have to impose their will upon others?&lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joker &#8212; how many Iraqis are really lining up to join Al Quada?</p>
<p>A lot of the unrest there is perpetrated by foreigners who have come there to pursue the jihad against us.</p>
<p>And, are those Iraqis &#8220;in line&#8221; pursuing this with the best interests of the Iraqi people at heart &#8212; or are these the dead-enders who want to renew their bloodstained meal ticket, under another name?</p>
<p>The Arab street didn&#8217;t erupt after we took Iraq, despite the predictions to the contrary of those who share your viewpoint.  The Arab peoples are human beings first &#8212; when you show them a way out of the brutality that has overtaken their culture, they will take it.</p>
<p>We can either act to deny the small minority of virulent Islamofascists the state resources that would make 911 look like a fender-bender &#8230; or do nothing, let them hijack those resources from ordinary Arabs, and feed their resolve with the perception of our weakness.</p>
<p>In fact, they can (and will) also gain more allies when their descriptions of us (as soft and decadent) are reinforced by our own passivity.  I could be wrong, <b>but I assert that this passivity will drive more Arabs to join the Islamofascists as &#8220;the winning team&#8221;, than will join them out of spite for resolute action on our part.</b></p>
<p>We persistently focus on OUR conduct, as if our actions and Al Quada&#8217;s are somehow morally equivalent.  My question is, <b>what right do these Islamofascists have to impose their will upon others?</b></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: michelle</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41364</link>
		<dc:creator>michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 18:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41364</guid>
		<description>joker, what about the long term consequences of NOT going into countries that harbor and give comfort and aid to terrorists. suicide bombings? chemical hazards/mustard and nerve gas? contamination of natural resources? these are things that have happened abroad (except the latter), i don&#039;t want to see those things happen here at home too. michelle</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>joker, what about the long term consequences of NOT going into countries that harbor and give comfort and aid to terrorists. suicide bombings? chemical hazards/mustard and nerve gas? contamination of natural resources? these are things that have happened abroad (except the latter), i don&#8217;t want to see those things happen here at home too. michelle</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41363</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 17:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41363</guid>
		<description>Thank you Joker.  You have just explained why we are in Iraq and why it must succeed. We are there for strategic military position in the region and to plant the seeds of democracy.

The only cure for muslim hatred of the United States is Freedom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Joker.  You have just explained why we are in Iraq and why it must succeed. We are there for strategic military position in the region and to plant the seeds of democracy.</p>
<p>The only cure for muslim hatred of the United States is Freedom.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joker</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41362</link>
		<dc:creator>Joker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 16:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41362</guid>
		<description>You know, regardless of who started this World War III, invading Muslim countries will spawn more terrorism than dealing with terrorism in a &#039;covert way&#039;, I think.
Just imagine how many Iraqis are lining up to join Bin Laden&#039;s &#039;construction&#039; company now.  Catch Bin Laden, and some other freak will take over.
Invade Syria, Iran, Libya, and although state sponsorship of terrorism will decrease, the anti-US sentiment will only grow.  Lessons learned from the war on drugs suggest that to &#039;make &amp; import&#039; chemicals and/or shady characters to employ them is trivial.  So, again, how much safer will you feel when instead of a few million angry Muslims, you have, say a billion?
What if and angry mob of Muslims deposes Musharaf?  Who gets his nukes?
Before you buy into invading one country after another, consider the long term consequences.
There is no trivial solution to this problem, but going down the path that only makes things worse, is a stupid utilization of limited resources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, regardless of who started this World War III, invading Muslim countries will spawn more terrorism than dealing with terrorism in a &#8216;covert way&#8217;, I think.<br />
Just imagine how many Iraqis are lining up to join Bin Laden&#8217;s &#8216;construction&#8217; company now.  Catch Bin Laden, and some other freak will take over.<br />
Invade Syria, Iran, Libya, and although state sponsorship of terrorism will decrease, the anti-US sentiment will only grow.  Lessons learned from the war on drugs suggest that to &#8216;make &#038; import&#8217; chemicals and/or shady characters to employ them is trivial.  So, again, how much safer will you feel when instead of a few million angry Muslims, you have, say a billion?<br />
What if and angry mob of Muslims deposes Musharaf?  Who gets his nukes?<br />
Before you buy into invading one country after another, consider the long term consequences.<br />
There is no trivial solution to this problem, but going down the path that only makes things worse, is a stupid utilization of limited resources.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41361</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41361</guid>
		<description>Hell why should we care about nuclear proliferation. They should be household items.After all the number of deaths from the detonation of thermo-nuclear devices (if you through out Nagasaki and Hiroshima) is zero.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hell why should we care about nuclear proliferation. They should be household items.After all the number of deaths from the detonation of thermo-nuclear devices (if you through out Nagasaki and Hiroshima) is zero.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41360</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:18:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41360</guid>
		<description>One more thing Radley. As my 5 year old nephew told me one day a few weeks ago &quot;sometimes a man&#039;s gotta do what a man&#039;s gotta do uncle mike&quot;.

And that is just what we are doing in the middle east no matter what the cost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more thing Radley. As my 5 year old nephew told me one day a few weeks ago &#8220;sometimes a man&#8217;s gotta do what a man&#8217;s gotta do uncle mike&#8221;.</p>
<p>And that is just what we are doing in the middle east no matter what the cost.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41359</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41359</guid>
		<description>Radley,

Is this what libertarianism is all about? Government policy set by number of deaths per year? Hell Radley, we should just scrap the whole armed forces and spend all of our  money on ant-smoking, pro-health, and AIDS research.

I must admit that you libertarians had me beliveing in your cause and almost becoming one but this post today has destroyed that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Radley,</p>
<p>Is this what libertarianism is all about? Government policy set by number of deaths per year? Hell Radley, we should just scrap the whole armed forces and spend all of our  money on ant-smoking, pro-health, and AIDS research.</p>
<p>I must admit that you libertarians had me beliveing in your cause and almost becoming one but this post today has destroyed that.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: manuel</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41358</link>
		<dc:creator>manuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 14:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41358</guid>
		<description>Radley I appreciate your response,  9/11 was a new experience to americans and so is our responseas a nation.  Statistical data on prevention is always difficult to formulate but failure is very easy to identify.  A successful terror attack on our society can be measured in two ways, body count and phsycological damage and both are equally important to the perpetrators.  Just look at the horrific effect 9/11 had on our economy.  As tragic as they may be deaths by cars,flu, guns etc,,, don`t have this effect on our lifestyle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Radley I appreciate your response,  9/11 was a new experience to americans and so is our responseas a nation.  Statistical data on prevention is always difficult to formulate but failure is very easy to identify.  A successful terror attack on our society can be measured in two ways, body count and phsycological damage and both are equally important to the perpetrators.  Just look at the horrific effect 9/11 had on our economy.  As tragic as they may be deaths by cars,flu, guns etc,,, don`t have this effect on our lifestyle.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rich Casebolt</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41357</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Casebolt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 04:43:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41357</guid>
		<description>Radley, no one&#039;s challenging your (and my) right to question our government.

However, shouldn&#039;t your (and my) pronouncements be held to the same standards of veracity and wisdom -- and therefore be subject to an equivalent level of criticism, when called for -- as those of this Administration (or any other) if we are to be taken seriously?

This is the mistake the loony Left makes -- they define free speech as being immune to challenge.  I don&#039;t think you&#039;re that far gone, but you are definitely leaning close to that cliff.

As I have said before, each of us has the right to say even idiotic things ... but we also have the DUTY to declare them idiotic when the facts call for it.

From what I see, when we stop straining at the philosophical gnats, most of the Patriot Act is about letting our government catch up to the edge the bad guys presently have, due to their ability to leverage today&#039;s technology, prosperity, and freedom of movement against laws and policies written for a slower-paced world.

We should be vigilant in our watch for abuse ... but we should also accurately assess the risk of rendering legitimate protective activities impotent in our vigilance.

--

The reason many of us are &quot;Bush apologists&quot; is because there is only one other viable alternative for the forseeable future ... and that &quot;alternative&quot; has already declared that (1)his view is that terrorism is a law-enforcement matter, and (2) good, bad, or indifferent, we will subordinate our judgment to that of the &quot;international community&quot;.

We tried the &quot;terrorism-as-crime&quot; apporach -- and it kept the door wide open for 911.  This isn&#039;t about justice in the law-enforcement sense.  

This is about war and survival ... and precision-guided ruthlessness is called for, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks.

This includes making judgement calls about recurring problems like Saddam &amp; Sons.  One thing is for sure -- those loose cannons will no longer be a factor in the War on Terror.  Was it good judgment to continually rely on the leaky bucket of containment to hold them, when we were going to fight others of like mind in their backyard?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Radley, no one&#8217;s challenging your (and my) right to question our government.</p>
<p>However, shouldn&#8217;t your (and my) pronouncements be held to the same standards of veracity and wisdom &#8212; and therefore be subject to an equivalent level of criticism, when called for &#8212; as those of this Administration (or any other) if we are to be taken seriously?</p>
<p>This is the mistake the loony Left makes &#8212; they define free speech as being immune to challenge.  I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re that far gone, but you are definitely leaning close to that cliff.</p>
<p>As I have said before, each of us has the right to say even idiotic things &#8230; but we also have the DUTY to declare them idiotic when the facts call for it.</p>
<p>From what I see, when we stop straining at the philosophical gnats, most of the Patriot Act is about letting our government catch up to the edge the bad guys presently have, due to their ability to leverage today&#8217;s technology, prosperity, and freedom of movement against laws and policies written for a slower-paced world.</p>
<p>We should be vigilant in our watch for abuse &#8230; but we should also accurately assess the risk of rendering legitimate protective activities impotent in our vigilance.</p>
<p>&#8211;</p>
<p>The reason many of us are &#8220;Bush apologists&#8221; is because there is only one other viable alternative for the forseeable future &#8230; and that &#8220;alternative&#8221; has already declared that (1)his view is that terrorism is a law-enforcement matter, and (2) good, bad, or indifferent, we will subordinate our judgment to that of the &#8220;international community&#8221;.</p>
<p>We tried the &#8220;terrorism-as-crime&#8221; apporach &#8212; and it kept the door wide open for 911.  This isn&#8217;t about justice in the law-enforcement sense.  </p>
<p>This is about war and survival &#8230; and precision-guided ruthlessness is called for, regardless of what the rest of the world thinks.</p>
<p>This includes making judgement calls about recurring problems like Saddam &#038; Sons.  One thing is for sure &#8212; those loose cannons will no longer be a factor in the War on Terror.  Was it good judgment to continually rely on the leaky bucket of containment to hold them, when we were going to fight others of like mind in their backyard?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41356</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:03:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41356</guid>
		<description>When one car accident kills 3,000 people and takes down a few buildings, I&#039;ll consider it more worthy a spending cause then stopping those whose main goal in life is to kill people.

The fact that you would even consider &quot;deaths by terrorism per year&quot; a measure of the significance of the threat of terrorism is idiotic. Give them a nuclear bomb and a deployment system and see how your numbers change.

Argue about it all you want, but you have a better chance of surviving running across a 6 lane freeway than you do by being in the mere presence of one who wants to kill you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When one car accident kills 3,000 people and takes down a few buildings, I&#8217;ll consider it more worthy a spending cause then stopping those whose main goal in life is to kill people.</p>
<p>The fact that you would even consider &#8220;deaths by terrorism per year&#8221; a measure of the significance of the threat of terrorism is idiotic. Give them a nuclear bomb and a deployment system and see how your numbers change.</p>
<p>Argue about it all you want, but you have a better chance of surviving running across a 6 lane freeway than you do by being in the mere presence of one who wants to kill you.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: michelle</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41355</link>
		<dc:creator>michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2004 22:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41355</guid>
		<description>can someone, anyone, please explain to me exactly how you as an American has lost liberty(ies) due to the patriot act? this is a piece of legislation of utmost importance in combatting threats here on the homeland. indeed, if i were in office i would be pushing for a 21st century mccarthy-ism including racial profiling (as non-PC as it is) full throttle and gangbusters as it&#039;s quite clear that islamic fundamentalists are the root of the problem regarding terrorism. the bad ones gotta go. as in sci-an-ara. so many ideas. so little power and influence. sigh. michelle</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>can someone, anyone, please explain to me exactly how you as an American has lost liberty(ies) due to the patriot act? this is a piece of legislation of utmost importance in combatting threats here on the homeland. indeed, if i were in office i would be pushing for a 21st century mccarthy-ism including racial profiling (as non-PC as it is) full throttle and gangbusters as it&#8217;s quite clear that islamic fundamentalists are the root of the problem regarding terrorism. the bad ones gotta go. as in sci-an-ara. so many ideas. so little power and influence. sigh. michelle</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: RD</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41354</link>
		<dc:creator>RD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41354</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s strange why libertarians are so concerned with whether or not our military actions are exacerbating terrorism.  When you show that you are willing to fight you discourage terrorists, which is exactly what&#039;s happening in Iraq right now.  When you cut and run at the first sign of danger you embolden terrorists.  Bin Laden himself said he thought that America didn&#039;t have the will to fight because of the way we responded to the first WTC attack, and how we pulled out of Somalia in 1993.  You don&#039;t increase aggression by demonstrating a willingness to use military might.  That&#039;s not the way the world works.  You don&#039;t get attacked because you are perceived to be too strong and too aggressive.  You get attacked because you are perceived to be too soft and weak, which is exactly why we were attacked on 9/11.  It&#039;s pure cowardice to suggest that we shouldn&#039;t engage in military action because we &quot;might&quot; encourage terrorism (this is what many libertarians think).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s strange why libertarians are so concerned with whether or not our military actions are exacerbating terrorism.  When you show that you are willing to fight you discourage terrorists, which is exactly what&#8217;s happening in Iraq right now.  When you cut and run at the first sign of danger you embolden terrorists.  Bin Laden himself said he thought that America didn&#8217;t have the will to fight because of the way we responded to the first WTC attack, and how we pulled out of Somalia in 1993.  You don&#8217;t increase aggression by demonstrating a willingness to use military might.  That&#8217;s not the way the world works.  You don&#8217;t get attacked because you are perceived to be too strong and too aggressive.  You get attacked because you are perceived to be too soft and weak, which is exactly why we were attacked on 9/11.  It&#8217;s pure cowardice to suggest that we shouldn&#8217;t engage in military action because we &#8220;might&#8221; encourage terrorism (this is what many libertarians think).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Radley Balko</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41353</link>
		<dc:creator>Radley Balko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41353</guid>
		<description>Okay, Manuel.  So because 9/11 happened, we&#039;re supposed to take everything our leaders say at face value, and never, ever question their decisions or ask whether the alleged safety we derive from them is worth their cost?  We&#039;re supposed shut up and take everything we&#039;re told, do everything we&#039;re asked, and never ask for an explanation?

Spare me the hysterics.  I drove by the Pentagon every day on my way to work -- for the first week after 9/11 while it was still smoldering.  I live and work in the D.C. area.  The odds of my dying in another terrorist attack are higher than most of the rest of the country.  No, I haven&#039;t forgotten 9/11, and no, I don&#039;t underestimate the threat.

Who is saying anything about stomaching terrorists?  I think we ought to kill them.  But I also think we have an obligation to make sure that what our leaders are doing in the name of protecting us is worth the sacrifice, cost and loss of liberty they&#039;re asking us to give them.

Not to mention that the money we&#039;re spending and the wars we&#039;re waging actually do diminish the risk, and don&#039;t exacerbate it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, Manuel.  So because 9/11 happened, we&#8217;re supposed to take everything our leaders say at face value, and never, ever question their decisions or ask whether the alleged safety we derive from them is worth their cost?  We&#8217;re supposed shut up and take everything we&#8217;re told, do everything we&#8217;re asked, and never ask for an explanation?</p>
<p>Spare me the hysterics.  I drove by the Pentagon every day on my way to work &#8212; for the first week after 9/11 while it was still smoldering.  I live and work in the D.C. area.  The odds of my dying in another terrorist attack are higher than most of the rest of the country.  No, I haven&#8217;t forgotten 9/11, and no, I don&#8217;t underestimate the threat.</p>
<p>Who is saying anything about stomaching terrorists?  I think we ought to kill them.  But I also think we have an obligation to make sure that what our leaders are doing in the name of protecting us is worth the sacrifice, cost and loss of liberty they&#8217;re asking us to give them.</p>
<p>Not to mention that the money we&#8217;re spending and the wars we&#8217;re waging actually do diminish the risk, and don&#8217;t exacerbate it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David L.</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2004/03/13/risk-security-and-liberty/comment-page-1/#comment-41352</link>
		<dc:creator>David L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3810#comment-41352</guid>
		<description>I read somewhere (Cole, Universe and the Teacup?) that the human brain is unable to perceive mundane/ubiquitous risk--especially incremental risk, and only exotic, catastrophic risks get on our radar screen. Supposedly this is essential for evolution of the species. Basically, it&#039;s why we&#039;re afraid to fly, but not afraid to eat donuts. Ancient man would hunt wild, carnivorous animals with sticks, but shat themselves over thunder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read somewhere (Cole, Universe and the Teacup?) that the human brain is unable to perceive mundane/ubiquitous risk&#8211;especially incremental risk, and only exotic, catastrophic risks get on our radar screen. Supposedly this is essential for evolution of the species. Basically, it&#8217;s why we&#8217;re afraid to fly, but not afraid to eat donuts. Ancient man would hunt wild, carnivorous animals with sticks, but shat themselves over thunder.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

