TheAgitator.com
My New Fox Column…
Thursday, November 20th, 2003It’s about — what else? — the D.C. smoking ban.
If that’s what got you here, welcome. I’ve already gotten some email asking how ya’ll can help the cause. I’d recommend checking out Ban The Ban, which as far as I know is the only group mounting an opposition to the resolution.
The Fox crew forgot to include the link in the column.
Great article… so, you’ve got a Cato paper coming up, huh?
Can’t wait… be sure to let us know where we can read it.
Radley,
Great FOX column.
I have another point about the smoking ban in Montgomery County:
A drop in patronage at Montgomery County bars will mean laid off workers, and possibly even failing businesses. That means that there will be less taxes collected. Where do you think Montgomery County will go to make up that loss in revenue? Who knows how much tax revenue will actually be lost, but the point is that this smoking ban really will only create other forms of coercion by the state.
Okay you âlibertarians for Deanâ, I donât know about the political views of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, but I do know that both the Rockefeller Family and the AFL-CIO (who enthusiastically support the ban) have definite left-wing political leanings.
See a pattern? Personal Liberty and Liberalism are like oil and water. And there is a logical reason for this.
Radley-
Why “argue” the second hand smoke death rate? That’s their trappings. It’s a non-issue concerning private property and smoking. If an individual is concerned about second hand smoke effects on them they have a choice to avoid the private property in question.
The Cato paper sounds interesting.
Questions/Statements:
1. Public Health issues are mandated by governments all the timeâfire regulations, sanitation, even food preparation.
2. So RWJ is in NJ. Don’t you live in Virginia? Also, the thought of us DC residents flocking to VA to smoke…c’mon, dude! Never! I’d have to get in my car!
3. Who is the Heartland Group? What is their agenda? There is ample evidence that second hand smoke is badâeven if numbers are flawed, skewed, disputed, or “laughed out of court.”
4. Won’t our taxes increase b/c of increased smoking related health costs from our citizensâmedicare, medicaid, etc.?
5. Didn’t tobacco companies bring a lot of this on themselves by manipulating the content of their product to make it more addictive, then lying about it?
I’m just not convinced that RWJ is that evil. I understand your concern about creeping nannyism, but gee, dc nitelife will survive! Or is that a canard?
See you out there…cheers!
ETJB: 1. Public Health issues are mandated by governments all the timeâfire regulations, sanitation, even food preparation.
Are you saying that is a âgoodâ thing? Maybe the government could put a monitor in your house to make sure you wake up on time and do your calisthenics in the morning? Perhaps they could even perform spot-checks to make sure you are wiping your ass properly after using the restroom?
ETJB: 2. So RWJ is in NJ. Don’t you live in Virginia?
Are you saying people in NJ are just as likely to go out in DC as someone living in Arlington?
ETJB: Also, the thought of us DC residents flocking to VA to smoke…c’mon, dude! Never! I’d have to get in my car!
So why donât you lobby the government to make crossing the state-line in order to go out illegal?
ETJB: There is ample evidence that second hand smoke is badâeven if numbers are flawed, skewed, disputed, or “laughed out of court.”
So what are you saying? There is also evidence that âfirst hand smokeâ is âbadâ. Are you implying that mommy-government is spoiling us by letting us eat too much âcandyâ?
ETJB: 4. Won’t our taxes increase b/c of increased smoking related health costs from our citizensâmedicare, medicaid, etc.?
Actually if You smoke and die earlier as a result then wonât that reduce the amount of social security, medicare, and medicaid that your receive? Besides we can always mandate euthanasia.
ETJB: 5. Didn’t tobacco companies bring a lot of this on themselves by manipulating the content of their product to make it more addictive, then lying about it?
Buyer beware.
I mean seriously, if someone breathes smoke into their lungs and they are dimwitted enough to believe that it isnât inherently bad for them, then (in a manner of speaking) the tobacco companies are doing us a service by removing unfit genes from the pool. Or maybe this is just part of TLOPâs plan to develop more pollution-resistant homo sapiens?
The fact is you cannot deliberately harm yourself. And people who smoke, smoke because they enjoy smoking.
ETJB: I understand your concern about creeping nannyism, but gee, dc nitelife will survive!
Sure, in the same way it survived through prohibition and the Victorian Era. Maybe we should all become Mormons ⦠or Muslims ⦠or Quakers â¦
1. Public Health issues are mandated by governments all the timeâfire regulations, sanitation, even food preparation.
Nobody goes into businesses that are “non-fire coded”, “non-sanitary” or “non-contaminated” because they want to burn, contract a disease or die of food poisoning. Bad analogies.
2. So RWJ is in NJ. Don’t you live in Virginia? Also, the thought of us DC residents flocking to VA to smoke…c’mon, dude! Never! I’d have to get in my car!
One, speaking for all. Bad logic, comrade.
3. Who is the Heartland Group? What is their agenda? There is ample evidence that second hand smoke is badâeven if numbers are flawed, skewed, disputed, or “laughed out of court.”
Ample isn’t good enough. What about “correct” and “accurate”?
4. Won’t our taxes increase b/c of increased smoking related health costs from our citizensâmedicare, medicaid, etc.?
A good argument against those governmental suck-holes. Thanks. Now, try to imagine the backlash against the legislator who proposes that smokers be denied the M&M subsidy for the same public-health-cost reasons.
5. Didn’t tobacco companies bring a lot of this on themselves by manipulating the content of their product to make it more addictive, then lying about it?
Yep. For decades now. And it’s been posted on every pack of smokes since 1970. In the past 30+ years, anybody who isn’t aware of the risks, consequences and remedies associated with tobcco use is equally as culpable for their own lack of informational participation.
This is like blaming the Parks Service for being mauled by a bear when hiking through Yellowstone wearing a meat hat.
“4. Won’t our taxes increase b/c of increased smoking related health costs from our citizensâmedicare, medicaid, etc.?”
This is a logically bankrupt argument.
If a law were passed that mandated government financial responsibility for childbirth, does that impart the right to regulate who may have children, and when?
If someday it is decided that the first amendment guarantee of freedom of speech requires the government to assume the costs of providing individuals a means to be heard, would you then advocate federal regulation of where and when that freedom may be exercised and by whom.
Yet another situation where government causes the problem, then insists that more regulation is the answer. That dog just won’t hunt.
ETJB: “4. Won’t our taxes increase b/c of increased smoking related health costs from our citizensâmedicare, medicaid, etc.?”
Brian Kieffer: If a law were passed that mandated government financial responsibility for childbirth, does that impart the right to regulate who may have children, and when?
That is a good argument.
How about:
4. Won’t our taxes increase b/c of increased meat-eating related health costs from our citizensâmedicare, medicaid, etc.?
4. Won’t our taxes increase b/c of increased skiing accident related health costs from our citizensâmedicare, medicaid, etc.?
4. Won’t our taxes increase b/c of increased sexually transmitted disease related health costs from our citizensâmedicare, medicaid, etc.?
4. Won’t our taxes increase b/c of increased out-of-shape, TV-watching couch-potato related health costs from our citizensâmedicare, medicaid, etc.?
4. Won’t our taxes increase b/c of increased sky-diving related health costs from our citizensâmedicare, medicaid, etc.?
4. Won’t our taxes increase b/c of increased caffine related health costs from our citizensâmedicare, medicaid, etc.?
4. Won’t our taxes increase b/c of increased â¦
I was so busy being brilliant that I forgot about being real.
I owned a restaurant for two years. By the summer of 2002, the economic downturn had dropped our business 30% (irony, no?).
I was able to control some costs like payroll (by firing people and reducing salaries) as well as material costs (by serving less and lower-quality food and drink) but fixed costs like rent, insurance, phone and utility bills did not give a flying darn about fewer dollars walking in the door. That aspect took a larger and larger chunk out of my (negative) net, month after month.
As a result, I closed.
Anybody who has ever owned or managed a food-service entity will tell you that:
A) If you want to make a small fortune in restaurants, start with a large one,
B) A 5% profit margin is astronomical, and
C) Government paperwork and regulation are the 800-pound gorillas sitting on your desk, day in and day out, keeping you from running your business the way you believe your clientele would like (and they are, after it’s all saucered and blown, the barometer of your success).
Leave it to lachrymose Social Crusaders to completely discount business dynamics in their gold-plated fascist schemes. An artificially imposed 30% drop in revenue is 99% fatal in such a narrow-margin business.
I’m as porcupine as the next guy, but I do - in my weaker moments - believe that anybody who supports plans like these should be rounded up and deported to France, or maybe Colombia. Let ‘em push their happy-nazi pablum somewhere else.
(BTW, my establishment was non-smoking, by choice, so that the quality of my product would not be interfered with. There was a smoker-friendly place two doors down and we coexisted quite nicely, even bordering on symbiosis. Had they been forced to change, we both would have suffered demise earlier.)
1.If I want to sell bloody boogers or raw chicken sushi at my cafe, the gov’t won’t let me. It is against health code. I’m just saying it is not unprecedented or inherently wrong for gov’t to set SOME rules.
2. Radley Balko made a big point about how an outside influence âRWJ of NJâ is affecting this issue. From his âAbout Meâ he states that he lives in Virginia. I just wanted to make this point as a DC resident.
Also, I never, ever wipe my ass.
3. There is correct and accurate information from government and medical sources that second hand smoke causes cardiovascular and lung disease. This comment section won’t let me link to the peer reviewed, gold standard reports from, yes, the EPA and the California Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment. Like it or not, this is what Smoke Free DC will be using in this fight. A story about how a NC judge dismissed a case may not be enough ammo for this.
4. & 5. Of course everyone has a choice! But tobacco companies marketed to children who didnât know any better and, yes, got them hooked by manipulating the contents of their product. They admitted to this. And we as taxpayers are paying for it nowâ¦whether you like these govât programs or not, itâs true. Thatâs how the states were able to sue tobacco cos. in the first place.
I am personally more supportive of limited government arguments as they apply to my privacy than smoking bans in public places. DISCLAIMER: I casually smoke.
Smoking may be an individuals right but that individual should not impose their rights on other individuals. The individual that sits next to a smoker in a bar or a restaurant is not able to have their own freedom of being free of smoke. It is now time that we outlaw smoking in all public establishments. If you want to smoke, bee free. But please do not impose on my rights.
TJ:
THEN DON’T GO TO A PLACE THAT ALLOWS SMOKING, ASSHAT!
Being a Fat Smelly Slob may be an individuals right but that individual should not impose their rights on other individuals. The individual that sits next to a Fat Slob in a movie theater or on an airplane is not able to have their own freedom of being free of Fat Slobs. It is now time that we outlaw Fat Slobs in all public establishments. If you want to be a Fat Slob, be free. But please do not impose on my rights.
Of course if you donât mind âFat Slobsâ then please feel free to replace the term âFat Slobâ with the term âNiggerâ or âJewâ.
Up here in Ottawa, the most sickening aspect of our 100% smoking ban has been the by-law officer gestapos, who swoop down on unsuspecting bar patrons, searching for recently used ashtrays. These pencilnecks have stooped so low as to harass veterans at their Legion get-togethers.
Now the Provincial government is proposing to legislate universal smoke-free public areas in order to trump any local by-law appeals. This sort of outrageous interference would make most Americans blanche, but sadly, it has become all too common up here in Canuckistan. Just a warning, folks!
ETJB: 1.If I want to sell bloody boogers or raw chicken sushi at my cafe, the gov’t won’t let me. It is against health code. I’m just saying it is not unprecedented or inherently wrong for gov’t to set SOME rules.
If YOU are foolish enough to open a restaurant which serves bloody boogers, or raw chicken, and I am foolish enough to order those items, and pay for them then why should any other Foolish unsolicited third party have a say in the matter? Isn’t there enough foolishness in this example already without the added foolshness of the government?
The next time you want to ask a girl out you had better call your congressman and your senators to check with them to make sure âshe is your typeâ first. I wouldnât want to see you making any foolish mistakes that might jeopardize an otherwise promising future.
ETJB: Radley Balko made a big point about how an outside influence âRWJ of NJâ is affecting this issue. From his âAbout Meâ he states that he lives in Virginia. I just wanted to make this point as a DC resident.
Granted that is a somewhat more valid point.
ETJB: 3. There is correct and accurate information from government and medical sources that second hand smoke causes cardiovascular and lung disease.
Okay, so should parents who smoke be arrested for child abuse?
ETJB: 4. & 5. Of course everyone has a choice! But tobacco companies marketed to children who didnât know any better.
I thought the responsibility of raising children fell on the Parents and not tobacco companies or the government???
ETJB: and, yes [tobacco companies], got them [children] hooked by manipulating the contents of their product.
Kind of the same way that Nintendo gets kids hooked by manipulating the content of their products? Personally I count my blessings that the laws of Physics didnât see fit to destine my birth in a third world country where I would probably already be dead from malnutrition or common disease.
But perhaps Iâm just lucky that way?
I don’t mean to be picking on you my Friend, donât take it personal. I am just busting on you a bit.
TJ, & ETJB
Its perfectly clear now why you’re both confused…you think of Bars and Restaurants as being “public places”… Tsk Tsk Tsk…THEY ARE PRIVATE PROPERTY, RUN BY PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS! They just hope to make a living by offering to let the public onto their property. You do not have a RIGHT to go to said property, let alone tell said owner how to operate the property. If you dislike something, leave. If there are enough like minded individuals that choose to leave that private property, then the private owner of the property will not be able to make a living, unless a change is made to suit the desires of his market. Making this change though is soley at the discretion of the owner, not of THE GOVERNMENT!!!!
ETJB,
Your argument that some regulation is necessary totally falls flat in the context of smoking. Health codes, food preparation codes, sanitation laws–these things protect people from things they can’t reasonably be expected to protect themselves from–the restaurant doesn’t invite me into the kitchen to look around for myself. But you can see plain as day when you walk into a bar that people are smoking there. And if you don’t like that, or if you deem it risky because you have bought into a bunch of junk science, then you can walk right back out.
I don’t really understand what pertinence the advertising habits of tobacco companies has in a discussion about a smoking ban either.
There is evidence (how you can claim to know that it is correct and accurate is beyond me) that secondhand smoke might pose a risk in terms of lung cancer and heart disease–”X number of people die per year, we have to ban the smoking!!” But what they don’t tell you is that lung cancer and heart disease as the result of exposure to smoke don’t kill you the year you are exposed. Lung cancer takes 15-20 years to develop to detectable levels and heart disease takes about the same–that is just before it is detected, not before it kills you. So the people in the 1993 study pointing to X number of people dying from smoke related illnesses, was actually from people exposed to smoke between about 1973 and 1978. Do you think that maybe exposure levels are SIGNIFICANTLY lower today than they were 20 years ago when 1.) many more people smoked, 2.) those who smoked, smoked more, and 3.)smoking was allowed pretty much everywhere.
CraigâBusiness owners have a responsibility and an interest to protect its workers. Thatâs why unions are behind this ban, not to protect the (public) customers. Yes, itâs real easy for me â from my smoke free officeâto tell waiters to get another job. Iâm lucky that way.
Incidentally, Iâm not sure how DC waiters and bartenders feel about this. Iâm not even sure how owners feel.
Hi Brooke!â(1.) See above comment. And (2.) re: tobacco cos.â my point is that time and time again business brings govât regulation upon itselfâfrom child labor laws, to food safety, to overtime pay. Some of the comments above like âif you are stupid enough to smokeâ etc. arenât really fair when pitted against an industry that glamorized tobacco usage to children and manipulated its content to make it more addictive. Tobacco cos. are getting hit back by a bigtime anti-smoking movement that sometimes partners with govât and with business.
Again, Iâm all for limited govât, but Iâm not inspired to fight this battle. Itâs a loser.
O and Serpent: You’re not picking on me; you do have a mean name tho.
you do have a mean name tho.
Don’t let the Black Wings fool you. I assure you that in reality I am one of the good guys.
I live in San Diego. We have had a smoking ban for several years now. It hasn’t seriously affected the bars or clubs. They are still just as crowded as they ever were. The ban isn’t a way for the govt to control us. The ban is for our own safety. It is the same as the requirement of wearing a seat belt. Aren’t people smart enough to know they need to wear a seat belt when they are in a vehicles? Are motorcyclists smart enough to know they need to wear a helmet? The answer is that most people are smart enough, however, many still would choose to not wear a seat belt or wear a helmet. Sometimes the govt does need to enact laws that protect us from ourselves because we are too concerned with our immediate “pleasure”. Smoking is dangerous. It is harmful to the person smoking and to others around them (even the cigarette companies know this http://www.pmusa.com). And for those who don’t smoke, we can smell the odor of the nicotine long after the smoker is done. Second-hand smoke is harmful, especially to pregnant women. I, personally, think all smoking should be outlawed. They only reason Congress won’t outlaw it is because it makes too much money. If people refuse to protect themselves, then the govt has a responsibility to do it for them, to a point.
Micah,
You have also made an excellent argument for why government should ban alcohol, drugs, guns, bungee-jumping, sky diving, homosexuality (any sexual promiscuity) and all religions other than Atheism.
Let me guess, you are going to be voting for Howard Dean?
Wow, that’s creepy. I had forgotten there were people out there who thought like Micah… even the people I know who favor the ban mostly avoid that kind of overtly paternalistic rationale.
Radley, I agree with some of your points, but will say that California Bars and Restaurants did NOT lose any business due to the smoking ban. The same has been said of NYC. I can also tell you that going out is a far more enjoyable experience because of the ban.
Shane
Personally, i feel, that if it is going to be law that one cannot smoke in public,then, there should also be a law banning farting & burping in public! These both stink and annoy me to no end!
Not to mention the rotten perfume that some women find necessary to pour on a bottle, before going out in public to annoy me,being i am allergic to the stuff!
Mr. Balko,
Sorry for this being off-topic. You were one of the first bloggers that I know about who blogged about the Valerie Plame affair. I wanted to let you and others know about a new song relating to that was just finished…
Were you around when Shirley Ellis’ 1965 hit, “The Name Game,” came out?
I had intended to do a guest blog entry at the ‘Deux Ego’ weblog called “The Plame Game.” I finally finished and published that entry yesterday:
The Plame Game
This is a new song, based upon that golden oldie…
Sing along if you want…
Shane …
Check the facts…. NYC has lost a lot of business. Maybe not in full service resturants, but the local pub is being slammed. Wait till winter comes. Do you know what winter is like in NY? Check the surveys…. even non smokers in NY think the ban is nuts. My biz is off by 35 % since the ban. Where are all the non smokers who were going to come out now. You have blinders on. It is my business, I should be able to decide how it is run and my decisions not gov’t decisions should deem whether I make it work or not.
Shane: I can also tell you that going out is a far more enjoyable experience because of the ban.
Yeah! Just like in the old days when the âcoloredâ, and âJewsâ were banned from my public school and my country club. Back then going to school and going to the country clubs were far more enjoyable experiences because of the ban.
I can’t stand when other Individuals try and interfere with my “free exercising” of my magical “free will” powers”. The entire world needs to bow down to my personal whims, because I hate when someone else inconveniences me with their own Individuality. In other words, I am in love with my own magic âfree willâ powers, but I canât stand when anybody else uses their magic âfree willâ powers!
And itâs not that this makes me a hypocrite, because I am a Liberal, and as anyone with a brain knows only conservatives can be hypocrites.
So you think it’s bad that nonprofits are lobbying for smoke-free restaurants and bars? Then what about local government agencies doing the same? Here in my hometown, Moorhead, Minnesota (not far from Lake Wobegon) the Clay County Public Health Office is part of the full-court press. Across the river, the Fargo- Cass County Public Health officials are doing the same. I’m someone who will have to vote on this (a city council member). I’m doing my research. And no, the evidence is not substantial that second-hand smoke causes health problems. Consumption of whole milk is more associated with lung cancer than is second-hand smoke. And check out what Dr. John Bailar has to say about epidemiologic studies linking exposure to second-hand smoke to heart problems. It’s not at all the way the advocates of the ban make it out to be.
Whatever John. It is a preventable. contributor to illness. And, as you will see, these bans are inevitable.
Mr. Balko. I don’t see how banning religions has anything to do with banning smoking or anything else. Why would you want to ban religion? We have the freedom of religion here in this country. If you wish to subscribe to the religion of Atheism then Europe is a better place for you. Smoking is harmful to our health, but religous freedom is expressly giving in our Constitution. And I wouldn’t vote for Howard Dean even if the only other choice was Micky Mouse. My vote will go to Bush.
Micah: Smoking is harmful to our health
So is being crucified, but last time I checked neither were considered sins.
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