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Line of the Day
Thursday, November 6th, 2003From the comments section at Hit & Run:
“Isn’t a ‘Pledge Of Allegiance” the antithesis of a “Declaration Of Independence’?”
Yeah. I think so.
37 Responses to “Line of the Day”
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so i guess that means everyone would have to sign their own declaration of independence, right? bc if they all signed the same one-or pledged allegiance to the same flag standing for the principles of liberty-they wouldn’t truly be ‘independent,’ would they?
Isn’t a âPledge Of Allegiance” the antithesis of a “Declaration Of Independence?”
Radley Balko: Yeah. I think so.
And howâs that???
No one forces you to accept the Pledge of Allegiance, and no one forces you to recite it. It is a pseudo-oath-of-fealty made, or not made, by oneâs own sense of loyalty and honor.
The Declaration of Independence affects anyone who lives in the United States, your input is not required.
Radley you can add this kind of attitude as Reason # 47,654 for the failure of Libertarians to have an political appeal to the vast majority of Americans.
The only time a Pledge can be the anithesis of a Declaration of Independence is if the Pledge advocates the removal of another’s independence or if the Pledge is recited under duress, threat of harm, or the threated loss of the independence given to the person under the Declaration (assuming the Declaration applies to the person reciting the Pledge.)
In the case of OUR Pledge and OUR Declaration of Independence — they do not run counter to each other. It is completely reasonable for a group to declare themselves independent and yet pledge to support the government that provides that independence.
Personally, I am starting to agree that the Pledge is somewhat unnecessary, and in a way is slightly creepy. I have no doubts about my own allegiance to this country, and therefore don’t really need to audibly voice it via the Pledge.
Calling the Pledge the “antithesis of the Declaration of Independence”, however, greatly overstates the significance of the Pledge and/or trivializes the Declaration; the latter of which I cannot tolerate.
I would not have a problem if the Pledge went away for good, or stuck-around forever. Either way, I don’t plan on utilizing my energy fighting for or against it. Frankly, I just don’t think the Pledge is worth it. If kids were just taught their history and civics more effectively, we wouldn’t have to resort to chants in the first place.
If kids, and subsequently adults, would better understand the greatness of this country, they would feel a proper allegiance in their hearts, which is where it counts.
I think Gene Healy’s recent commentary on the pledge speaks well of a lot of libertarians’ misgivings with it.
http://www.cato.org/dailys/11-04-03.html
Serpent: “No one forces you to accept the Pledge of Allegiance, and no one forces you to recite it.”
While technically true, tell that to the school kids across the country. I still remember the Jehovah’s Witness kid in the third grade who had to step out of the room every morning. Of course he wasn’t being “forced” to recite the pledge, but the consequences of being the ONE KID who had to CONSPICUOUSLY abstain from the morning loyalty oath were very real, and for an eight year old, no doubt profound.
The pledge was pretty clearly invented to condition people from an early age to the idea of allegiance to the state. That the coersion involved is “soft” does not make it any less insidious, particularly for the children for which it is intended.
And yes, I would say that “allegiance…to the Republic” and “dissolv[ing] the political bands” are pretty close to antithetical.
Oops, that one went wide, way wide of the goal.
I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.
October 11, 1892
Hmmphh…I’m glad the guys at Iwo Jima and Omaha beach didn’t parse words like we do today.
Radley, dude, you’re starting to sound like the libertarian version of the ACLU. Lighten up. There is no slippery slope. Your logic is a little flawed too. Frankly, I can choose to observe the pledge or not. If I am in this country, I am forced to either flee it or abide by the constitution and the declaration of independence. Not that I’m complaining, but it’s just ironic that I have way more choice with regard to this terrible, antithetical pledge.
While i found Healy’s explanations of the pledge’s origins frightening with regards to its author and that nazi-esque salute, I think Radley and others’ viewpoints to be a little overeaching.
I always felt the point was to praise the symbolism of the flag and the efforts of our forefathers to establish this country. “Liberty and justice for all” we say. What’s the problem with that?
I think rituals, symbols, and the “hocus pocus” are just as important as civics education. We are creatures of sentiment and reason and both must work together to forge our loyalty to the US and its principles.
Of course.
Because a slight majority of Americans never thought about the pledge of Allegiance then anyone who questions our practice of instilling an oath of fealty in our children is a crazy radical.
You’ve gone too far this time. Declaring independence from England is not the antithesis of pledging allegiance to our new nation in any way I can reason through. For someone so quick to claim your rights under our Constitution, I’m shocked quite frankly that you are so reluctant to pledge allegiance to said Constitution. I agree with most of your complaints of the way our government interprets the Constitution, but I have a serious problem with anyone who expects to receive the benefits of the Constituion without pledging their allegiance to it.
I would even support making those who wish to receive the benefits conferred by the Constitution promise to defend it (and by that I mean with their life). However, I won’t claim to be shocked by those who disagree with this last statement.
“If I am in this country, I am forced to either flee it or abide by the constitution and the declaration of independence.”
I have to ask! How are you forced to obey the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence? Our elected officials and judges stopped abiding by the Bill of Rights years ago.
I’m on Radley’s side on this one the pledge is nothing, but a mindless recitation used to try to bring up children to think that ever questioning their government is un-american.
john writes: ” always felt the point was to praise the symbolism of the flag and the efforts of our forefathers to establish this country. “Liberty and justice for all” we say. What’s the problem with that?”
Well, for starters, even Stalin and Hitler had flags. The flag isn’t what makes this country what it is, so why the hell are people pledging allegiance to it?
It’s just a multicolored rag. The forefathers had precious little to do with it, considering that it has changed since they were around. But they did draft the Constitution.
So it’d make more sense to pledge allegiance to the Constitution, and that’d be far more educational. Might instill in people an awareness of its importance, and that it should be protected and not trampled on.
Pledging allegiance to a flag is pointless, because that same flag could represent an absolute bastardization of the principles of the Constitution.
Replace our system of government with a totalitarian system, with gulags, no civil rights, no protections, no vote. Keep the flag the same. What does the pledge mean then?
Diego: “I’m shocked quite frankly that you are so reluctant to pledge allegiance to said Constitution.”
Clue: The flag is not the Constitution.
Jon H-
That is a fact– the flag is not the contstitution. But read on… “and to the republic for which it stands”
The constitution IS the formative document of “the republic for which it stands”
Follow up to my last post:
The Constitution is also the governing document of “the republic for which it stands” — formative, while accurate, is incomplete.
Diego,
I don’t know about you, but my rights come from God, not from the constition. My religious beliefs supercede this countries idea that a piece of hemp paper is what actually makes me a free man.
oops, that would be constitution…
Didn’t you guys see the quotes?
The notion is that the phrases “Declaration of independence” and “Pledge of allegiance” are antithetical; not that the great document is the opposite of the stupid loyalty oath that is meaningless to most who mumble it.
Seems true to me.
And a country that is worth defending needn’t rely on loyalty oaths to ensure its defense.
The fact that the government coerces children to recite the oath is embarrassing and a bit creepy. Yes, I know it’s technically voluntary (but even that took a court decision), but it’s not easy to exclude yourself from such an activity and risk the repercussions from teacher and peers.
so the good boys and girls take the so-called right track
faded white hats grabbing credits, maybe transfers
they read all the books but they can’t find the answers
all of our parents, they’re getting older
I wonder if they’ve wished for anything better
while in their memories, tiny tragedies
they love to tell you “stay inside the lines”
but something’s better on the other side
I agree that a pledge of allegiance is the antithesis of a declaration of independence, BUT that statement is our of context.
For example, if we declared our independence from Great Britain and then pledged allegiance to them, that would be antithetical, BUT IF
we declared independence from all other nations EXCEPT our own and then pledged allegiance to the US, then that is NOT antithetical but patriotic and common sense, in my opinion.
Pledge of Allegiance socialist indoctrination?
“It’s probably too much to ask politicians to reflect a little before they lunge for a political hot-button issue. But any conservatives so inclined should think about what they’re defending. What’s so conservative about the Pledge? Very little, as it…
Serpent (previously): No one forces you to accept the Pledge of Allegiance, and no one forces you to recite it.
Brian Hawkins: While technically true, tell that to the school kids across the country. I still remember the Jehovah’s Witness kid in the third grade who had to step out of the room every morning. Of course he wasn’t being “forced” to recite the pledge, but the consequences of being the ONE KID who had to CONSPICUOUSLY abstain from the morning loyalty oath were very real, and for an eight year old, no doubt profound.
You know ⦠when I was a kid I had a friend who was a Jehovahâs witness and do you know what? ⦠because of his religion he never got any Christmas or Birthday presents!?!?! What kind of world do we live in where people actually have to accept the consequences for the beliefs and the actions resultant from those beliefs???
Hopefully one day soon we will all be able to use our âfree willâ and completely avoid any negative consequences that result from our beliefs and desires.
Brian Hawkins: The pledge was pretty clearly invented to condition people from an early age to the idea of allegiance to the state.
Well, I would contend that it is more accurate to say we are coercing/conditioning them at an early age to the notion of allegiance to our society/community (i.e. civilization).
Brian Hawkins: That the coercion involved is “soft” does not make it any less insidious, particularly for the children for which it is intended.
Think of it like this ⦠Toilet training was pretty clearly invented to condition people from an early age to the idea of not pooping in their pants. That the coercion involved is “soft” does not make it any less insidious, particularly for the children for which it is intended
Serpent,
1st point:
I have no problem with people having to deal with the consequences of their actions and beliefs…but I do have a problem with a government that creates consequences–ranging from social discomfort for kids that don’t say the PoA to prison sentences for non-violent drug offenders–that have nothing whatsoever to do with the government’s proper roles of defending the life, liberty, and property of its citizens.
2nd point:
The Pledge says “…and to the Republic”, not to the society/community/civilization. Last time I checked, a republic is a type of government, i.e., the type we allegedly have.
3rd point:
You know, my initial reaction was to laugh at how ridiculous your comparison of teaching children to be good “members of society” to teaching them how not to shit on themselves was. But now that I think about it, the two have something very important in common:
They are both the job of the parents.
Brian Hawkins,
Brian Hawkins: 1st point: I have no problem with people having to deal with the consequences of their actions and beliefs…but I do have a problem with a government that creates consequences â¦
But isnât âthe governmentâ simply the manifestation of the will of We the People? If it is actually We the People who are stipulating (creating) those consequences then where exactly is the contradiction?
The problem is people who donât want there to be any consequences for their actions (going against the majority).
Brian Hawkins: [continues â¦consequences â¦] ranging from social discomfort for kids that don’t say the PoA to prison sentences for non-violent drug offenders–that have nothing whatsoever to do with the government’s proper roles of defending the life, liberty, and property of its citizens.
Hereâs the thing ⦠most (as in a âmajorityâ) of people donât have a problem with the Pledge of Allegiance or the concept of âGodâ, and similarly most people donât have a problem with their children being conditioned as Citizens existing within a Society. Now on the other hand, regarding the legalization of drugs, I would say that it is highly doubtful that most people approve of the âDrug Warâ, or current drug sentencing guidelines. In a Democracy the majority rules (within specified limits) even if you happen to not agree with the majority. An inconsistency within a Democracy occurs when the will of the majority is thwarted.
Brian Hawkins: 2nd point: The Pledge says “…and to the Republic”, not to the society/community/civilization. Last time I checked, a republic is a type of government, i.e., the type we allegedly have.
Exactly. So are you actually contending that there is something wrong with the citizens of a community (and a âRepublicâ is simply a specific form of community) reaffirming their loyalty and belief in the common ideals which unite them as a community? If it is not a common purpose which unites Individuals then what does unite individuals?
Brian Hawkins: 3rd point: You know, my initial reaction was to laugh at how ridiculous your comparison of teaching children to be good “members of society” to teaching them how not to shit on themselves was. But now that I think about it, the two have something very important in common: They are both the job of the parents.
Well then perhaps we can both agree that the government really has no business edumacating (i.e. brainwashing) our children in the first place then? To be honest I find it more than offensive that the people who actually pay for the schools and are forced to send their children there have no real say in the manner in which their children are educated.
But it isnât really the government that is behind this scam. It is the Secularist (the Atheist theocracy) who canât stand the notion of âinferiorâ parents passing on their âinferiorâ beliefs to their own offspring.
Serpent: Well then perhaps we can both agree that the government really has no business edumacating (i.e. brainwashing) our children in the first place then?
How does this square with your criticisms of those complain about the Pledge based on its status as the will of the majority.
I’m not sure how the majority of people feel about the war on drugs, but I’m pretty confident that most people think that the government should run schools and many think that the only question is how much more money they should be spending on it.
And, yet, your complaint about the government running schools is still valid. As are the complaints of others about the Pledge.
These are bad things for a government in a free society to be doing. The majority opinion makes changing them impractical, but that doesn’t mean that criticisms are invalid or should stop.
Gil: I’m not sure how the majority of people feel about the war on drugs, but I’m pretty confident that most people think that the government should run schools and many think that the only question is how much more money they should be spending on it.
Ohh I strongly disagree. Why do you think the democrats and their minions at the NEA fight like cornered animals every time the issue of school vouchers is raised? They want their federally enforced monopoly protected from âinferiorâ self-serving parents and children.
Give people the option of drastically reduced property taxes and sending their children to the private school of their choice and see which option they tend to select. Or put another way, (assuming you have children) would you rather send those children to a school of your choosing with ideals and values compatible with your own, or would you prefer your children to receive a sub-standard public school education and a side order of liberal indoctrination and thought control?
If public education is so great then why don’t we make university-level education public as well?
Gil: And, yet, your complaint about the government running schools is still valid. As are the complaints of others about the Pledge.
Once again I disagree. If the government is going to force me to send my children to school, then the very least they can do is allow the parents of those children to have a say in the manner in which their children will be indoctrinated/conditioned. The fact is that MOST parents have no problem with the Pledge of Allegiance, nor with the phrase âOne nation under Godâ.
Gil: These are bad things for a government in a free society to be doing. The majority opinion makes changing them impractical, but that doesn’t mean that criticisms are invalid or should stop.
On this point I am in complete agreement. Not only are you allowed to think whatever you want, but you are also guaranteed the Right to say (pretty much) whatever you want by the majority (by the Constitution/Bill of Rights).
And if the majority want to recite the pledge of allegiance or say a prayer in the morning before class, then who is the minority to deny them this right?
Well then perhaps we can both agree that the government really has no business edumacating (i.e. brainwashing) our children in the first place then?
Absolutely.
As you’ve already alluded to, one consequence of “public” education (especially when schooling up to a cetain age is also compulsory) is that any decision regarding how public schools ought to be run becomes a political football. This is one of the more compelling arguments for a truly market-based education system…one that would be able to meet the various (and often, mutually exclusive) preferences that people have for education far better than any public system ever could.
As to all your other points…I think I can address them all by saying you have far more respect for democratic/majoritarian rule than I do. I’m concerned with individual freedom, something to which democracy is frequently a menace. That something is the opinion of a majority–to me–is simply not a compelling arguement for much of anything.
But this, like many things, is something about which reasonable people can disagree…
Cases like this, or the 10 Commandments case in Alabama, tend to bring out the worst of the conventional “right” and “left”…both groups tend to see themselves as being continually downtrodden by the other. Even as you complain about the Secularists wanting to margnilize your beliefs, many liberals percieve you (not necessarily you personally) as wanting to force your beliefs down their throats. Because we do essentially have a majoritarian system, both groups are perhaps right to fear the other.
Perhaps, then, the real solution is to figure out a way for everyone to peacefully coexist within their own spheres, without forcing their beliefs (or lack thereof) on anyone else. A market based education system, for example, would be an excellent step in that direction.
Michael,
“my rights come from God, not from the constitution. My religious beliefs supercede this countries idea that a piece of hemp paper is what actually makes me a free man.”
Not being a religious person, I have never quite figured this one out. Are you talking about Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, or some other “rights?” And, who do you see when those rights are violated?
If you are not religious this may be hard for you to follow, but bear with me….
First, let’s take the term Life,Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness. Jefferson thought these inalienable rights were given by the creator (whatever that means to you,for me it’s God).
Now, lets look at Life. For me personally, I feel God has a hand in every Life ever created. You know in high school they teach biology, and about the same time the hormones start to rage. For me I enjoyed those rageing hormones, probably a little too much, for a 16-18 year old. Was I a lucky one, who didn’t become a statistic and have a kid before I graduated, or was there something else (devine intervention) helping me out..Sure some of this can be explained secularly through biology, but at the same time there are so many variables involved. Why are some people sterile for no reason,while some are too fertile? But back to life, being that I feel God chose that second or moment for my parents to engage and create me, Does the Gov’t then give me life or does God give me life? For me it’s God, The Gov’t can martyr me, lock me up forever, whatever, but they can never take the God within me away. For me that’s life.
Next, let’s take liberty. Liberty to me is knowing in my heart what is right and wrong, and knowing that if I stay on the “right” path I will always have liberty. The Gov’t can take this one away from me. But, in the bible it states “life on earth is but a blink of an eye” so again, if the gov’t decides to have its way with me, I know in my heart it’s only temporary and God will see me through the times.
Pursuit of happiness, this wraps up all three into a nutshell. Pursuit of happiness, it’s just that, pursueing what makes you happy. There are beautiful things around us on this planet that many take for granted, unfortunately. Whatever your cup of tea is, whatever your happiness is derived from, it’s up to you to find it. The gov’t, nor even a loved one can tell you what will make you happy. Once again, the Gov’t can take this one away from you, but to have solace in God is to have peace of mind. And peace of mind to me is happiness.
Now I have to explain, I have extremely different religious views than most Christians, I keep a more fundamental approach to it. A lot of the “thou shalt nots” that my church taught me when I was young have no basis to me, they are mere control apparatuses. I read the bible for inspiration and guidance, not as a truth and consequences book. I don’t feel I have the right to push my beliefs upon anyone, if one chooses to listen, then may God bless you, may God bless you even if you don’t listen, but anyway. I don’t like abortion, but what right do I have to tell you how to live your life. I don’t agree with the drug war, although I’m sure there are some sick people out there who it has helped keep from addiction. God gave us all free will, it’s up to us to use it. Beit atheist, jewish, catholic, protestant, buddhist, whatever we all have the free will to follow whatever we may choose. I’m sure this might not help you understand my statement anymore, but when dealing with spiritual ideologies, it is hard to explain with a keyboard. I get my peace of mind from God not the gov’t that is why I will only pledge allegiance to him, not an entity of worldly people or a multi-colored piece of fabric. I wish I could state it clearer, but with the time alotted me this is the best I can do. If you are still unsure of what I mean, reply to this and I will try again tomorrow. peace.
Michael,
With all due respect, you haven’t been using the term “rights” (or even “liberty”)in the conventional sense, which makes it difficult to follow your reasoning. The terms are usually used in depicting civic, not religious relationships.
That’s OK with me, now that you’ve explained yourself. It does seem, however, that it leaves you a shade too complacent in the face of government power over your life.
But, hey, whatever your comfortable with!
I agree, I probably am too complacent with the intrusion of Gov’t in my life. But, my only other recourse is anger, which has caused me great grief. I do stay up to date in the Gov’t scheme of things, but I tend to let it get to me. So sometimes, informed-ignorance (complacentcy-sp?) IS bliss. For me at least, but thanks for understanding my POV.
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