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	<title>Comments on: An Historical What-If</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/</link>
	<description>It rankles me when somebody tries to tell somebody what to do.</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Carol</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30035</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2004 03:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30035</guid>
		<description>Larry - Laughed heartily at your common knowledge story, earlier in the thread.  Another well known fact among Muslim men is that all Western women who turn them down are lesbians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry - Laughed heartily at your common knowledge story, earlier in the thread.  Another well known fact among Muslim men is that all Western women who turn them down are lesbians.</p>
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		<title>By: Bobby</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30034</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2003 07:21:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30034</guid>
		<description>Maybe a little of both Alan (lol).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe a little of both Alan (lol).</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30033</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Sep 2003 22:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30033</guid>
		<description>IMO the media do not slant this story because they're feckless capitalists selling negativity. I think a lot of them are feckless socialists who hate Bush so much that they want America to fail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMO the media do not slant this story because they&#8217;re feckless capitalists selling negativity. I think a lot of them are feckless socialists who hate Bush so much that they want America to fail.</p>
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		<title>By: James D</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30032</link>
		<dc:creator>James D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30032</guid>
		<description>I agree ... things are much better in Iraq now than ANY of the press is reporting ... note that a bunch of Senators (Reps and Dems) just went over there and said the press is heavily spinning all the negative stories.  

Should we really be surprised?  Our local news broadcasts make our towns look like war zones the way they talk about murders .... why should the larger media outlets be any different.  Negativity sells.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree &#8230; things are much better in Iraq now than ANY of the press is reporting &#8230; note that a bunch of Senators (Reps and Dems) just went over there and said the press is heavily spinning all the negative stories.  </p>
<p>Should we really be surprised?  Our local news broadcasts make our towns look like war zones the way they talk about murders &#8230;. why should the larger media outlets be any different.  Negativity sells.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark S.</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30031</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30031</guid>
		<description>If there's any conspiracy it's the poor reporting going on regarding the lead up to this war, the war itself, and the post-war cleanup.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there&#8217;s any conspiracy it&#8217;s the poor reporting going on regarding the lead up to this war, the war itself, and the post-war cleanup.</p>
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		<title>By: James D</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30030</link>
		<dc:creator>James D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30030</guid>
		<description>I hope you're joking because that's the stupidest conspiracy theory I've heard yet .... only the Middle Eastern press could have come up with something like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope you&#8217;re joking because that&#8217;s the stupidest conspiracy theory I&#8217;ve heard yet &#8230;. only the Middle Eastern press could have come up with something like that.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Talbot</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30029</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Talbot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2003 04:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30029</guid>
		<description>I'm still trying to figure out, under the scenario, who the hijackers really were (CIA trainees?) and why they would fly a plane into the Pentagon. Of course, they left CIA headquarters untouched.

Hmmmmmm......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still trying to figure out, under the scenario, who the hijackers really were (CIA trainees?) and why they would fly a plane into the Pentagon. Of course, they left CIA headquarters untouched.</p>
<p>Hmmmmmm&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: James D</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30028</link>
		<dc:creator>James D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30028</guid>
		<description>'Common knowledge in the Middle East' ?  Isn't that an oxymoron?  I mean seriously, the middle eastern press is only giving you about 5% truth and 95% fiction.  I think the Soviet news gave you more facts than the likes of Al-Jazeera, etc .....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Common knowledge in the Middle East&#8217; ?  Isn&#8217;t that an oxymoron?  I mean seriously, the middle eastern press is only giving you about 5% truth and 95% fiction.  I think the Soviet news gave you more facts than the likes of Al-Jazeera, etc &#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Talbot</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30027</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Talbot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30027</guid>
		<description>Today I spoke with a Kuwaiti immigrant, now a US citizen, who tells me it is common knowledge throughout the Middle East that the 9/11 attack was conducted by CIA operatives; that bin Laden had nothing to do with it.

If true, this whole "what if" needs to be reconfigured.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Today I spoke with a Kuwaiti immigrant, now a US citizen, who tells me it is common knowledge throughout the Middle East that the 9/11 attack was conducted by CIA operatives; that bin Laden had nothing to do with it.</p>
<p>If true, this whole &#8220;what if&#8221; needs to be reconfigured.</p>
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		<title>By: Fresh Bilge</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30036</link>
		<dc:creator>Fresh Bilge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30036</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Whence Iraq?&lt;/strong&gt;

Last night I challenged this post at The Agitator, in...
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Whence Iraq?</strong></p>
<p>Last night I challenged this post at The Agitator, in&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30026</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:09:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30026</guid>
		<description>LOL Radley...that was pretty bad. Quit being wierd about Iraq.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL Radley&#8230;that was pretty bad. Quit being wierd about Iraq.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30025</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:36:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30025</guid>
		<description>These what-ifs are sterile. The thing is done. What-nows would be more to the point. Still, I can't resist making a couple of observations.

Radley, you have failed to consider the effect of your scenario on world oil markets and economies, other than to assert oil is fungible. That's true, but oil-fields aren't. They can be blown up, or ruined by neglect and mismanagement. Iraq's infrastructure has been decaying since the 1970's, and it will require massive investment to salvage the Iraqi oil industry.

Iraq and Iran had already savaged each other before Gulf War I, but that mattered relatively little in world oil markets because the Saudis outproduced their neighbors. If Saddam had tried to conquer Saudi Arabia, do you think Iran would have sat back and applauded? Not likely. A regional war involving &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; the Gulf powers was the nightmare scenario that forced the hand of Bush Sr.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These what-ifs are sterile. The thing is done. What-nows would be more to the point. Still, I can&#8217;t resist making a couple of observations.</p>
<p>Radley, you have failed to consider the effect of your scenario on world oil markets and economies, other than to assert oil is fungible. That&#8217;s true, but oil-fields aren&#8217;t. They can be blown up, or ruined by neglect and mismanagement. Iraq&#8217;s infrastructure has been decaying since the 1970&#8217;s, and it will require massive investment to salvage the Iraqi oil industry.</p>
<p>Iraq and Iran had already savaged each other before Gulf War I, but that mattered relatively little in world oil markets because the Saudis outproduced their neighbors. If Saddam had tried to conquer Saudi Arabia, do you think Iran would have sat back and applauded? Not likely. A regional war involving <i>all</i> the Gulf powers was the nightmare scenario that forced the hand of Bush Sr.</p>
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		<title>By: Bobby</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30024</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30024</guid>
		<description>I disagree that a superpower should not attempt to limit the power of another superpower in a bi-polar world. The fact that they "probably" would have collapsed anyway was not so well known then and purely speculative now. Fighting these proxy wars might not have been the reason for their collapse but it definately limited, to a degree, their expansion of power. 

The Soviet/Afghanistan and Iraq/Al-Qaeda examples are apples and oranges. Completely different enemies with completely different ways of going about attacking us. Not to sound like Bush but this is a new kind of war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree that a superpower should not attempt to limit the power of another superpower in a bi-polar world. The fact that they &#8220;probably&#8221; would have collapsed anyway was not so well known then and purely speculative now. Fighting these proxy wars might not have been the reason for their collapse but it definately limited, to a degree, their expansion of power. </p>
<p>The Soviet/Afghanistan and Iraq/Al-Qaeda examples are apples and oranges. Completely different enemies with completely different ways of going about attacking us. Not to sound like Bush but this is a new kind of war.</p>
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		<title>By: datarat</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30023</link>
		<dc:creator>datarat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30023</guid>
		<description>awwwful lot of supposition here.  I see a lot of "Probably" but not much to back up the probabilities.  In truth, Radical Islam will probably self destruct in the next 50 years, as it manages to isolate itself and destroy it's own resources through medieval governance and suicide assaults.

But if we allow it to run that course, is there any doubt that there will be repeated attacks on the US because we have what they do not?  Because we don't believe in what they do?

I don't think we can afford to construct elaborate scenarios where if we just let the world go to hell in a handbasket they won't bother us any more.  It doesn't work that way, and it never did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>awwwful lot of supposition here.  I see a lot of &#8220;Probably&#8221; but not much to back up the probabilities.  In truth, Radical Islam will probably self destruct in the next 50 years, as it manages to isolate itself and destroy it&#8217;s own resources through medieval governance and suicide assaults.</p>
<p>But if we allow it to run that course, is there any doubt that there will be repeated attacks on the US because we have what they do not?  Because we don&#8217;t believe in what they do?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think we can afford to construct elaborate scenarios where if we just let the world go to hell in a handbasket they won&#8217;t bother us any more.  It doesn&#8217;t work that way, and it never did.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon H</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30022</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30022</guid>
		<description>A similar approach can be taken with Afghanistan.

If we hadn't mucked about with the Mujaheddin, the Soviet Union probably would have collapsed anyway. With or without the expense of the war, the economic system was in trouble. Also, the political changes (Gorbachev, etc) which really made the collapse possible came long before the withdrawal from Afghanistan.

Upon the Soviet collapse, Afghanistan would probably have become stably independent, just like all of its ex-Soviet neighbors like our buddy Uzbekistan.

Had we not supported the Islamist mujaheddin, that post-Soviet system in Afghanistan might have been stable. (We might have had to lean on Pakistan not to interfere on its own.)

So, ironically, our best policy with regards to Afghanistan would have been to support the Soviet invasion and to work to keep Pakistani Islamists from entering Afghanistan to fight the Soviets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A similar approach can be taken with Afghanistan.</p>
<p>If we hadn&#8217;t mucked about with the Mujaheddin, the Soviet Union probably would have collapsed anyway. With or without the expense of the war, the economic system was in trouble. Also, the political changes (Gorbachev, etc) which really made the collapse possible came long before the withdrawal from Afghanistan.</p>
<p>Upon the Soviet collapse, Afghanistan would probably have become stably independent, just like all of its ex-Soviet neighbors like our buddy Uzbekistan.</p>
<p>Had we not supported the Islamist mujaheddin, that post-Soviet system in Afghanistan might have been stable. (We might have had to lean on Pakistan not to interfere on its own.)</p>
<p>So, ironically, our best policy with regards to Afghanistan would have been to support the Soviet invasion and to work to keep Pakistani Islamists from entering Afghanistan to fight the Soviets.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Weininger</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30021</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Weininger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30021</guid>
		<description>"Good historians don't use counterfactuals", eh?

Have you ever, then, read Niall Ferguson or Jeffrey Rogers Hummel? Or do you not think they're good historians?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Good historians don&#8217;t use counterfactuals&#8221;, eh?</p>
<p>Have you ever, then, read Niall Ferguson or Jeffrey Rogers Hummel? Or do you not think they&#8217;re good historians?</p>
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		<title>By: david</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30020</link>
		<dc:creator>david</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30020</guid>
		<description>Good historians don't use counterfactuals.  Politicians (especially ones with ideologies) do.  Just a wee point to remember.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good historians don&#8217;t use counterfactuals.  Politicians (especially ones with ideologies) do.  Just a wee point to remember.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin G</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30019</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30019</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; 3) If Saddam had toppled the House of Saud...

I have never been convinced that Sadaam was going to invade Saudi Arabia. However if he had invaded I think the most logical outcome is that the House of Saud is quickly toppled, but Sadaam is unable to gain real control of the country. He would then have to deal with a full scale Jihad from Usama and company. The country sinking into chaos would have been a real possibility.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> 3) If Saddam had toppled the House of Saud&#8230;</p>
<p>I have never been convinced that Sadaam was going to invade Saudi Arabia. However if he had invaded I think the most logical outcome is that the House of Saud is quickly toppled, but Sadaam is unable to gain real control of the country. He would then have to deal with a full scale Jihad from Usama and company. The country sinking into chaos would have been a real possibility.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Bob Boardley</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30018</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Boardley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30018</guid>
		<description>Interesting! How different would things be today? Who know's? Larry's comparison to GWI to WWI is valid only in that in both cases the jobs were left unfinished which resulted in chapter II for both events.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting! How different would things be today? Who know&#8217;s? Larry&#8217;s comparison to GWI to WWI is valid only in that in both cases the jobs were left unfinished which resulted in chapter II for both events.</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://www.theagitator.com/2003/09/21/an-historical-what-if/#comment-30017</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.theagitator.com/?p=3142#comment-30017</guid>
		<description>this last exchanges proves the theorum:
the only thing more asinine than reading a Chris Farley post, is responding to one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this last exchanges proves the theorum:<br />
the only thing more asinine than reading a Chris Farley post, is responding to one.</p>
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