Torture? Is it okay? Even in the most extreme cases? Not in my opinion, unless the person authorizing the torture is psychic and has, you know, determined that the person being tortured is, in fact, definitely and absolutely a terrorist…

1) The FBI could have gotten a warrant for Moussaoui’s computer, but didn’t even try, for some strange reason (and the special court which authorizes such warrants has a turn-down rate near zero).

2) The FBI supervisor who made that decision was given a bonus recently, for ‘outstanding performance’, or some such reason.

3) This had absolutely nothing to do with any rumored ’stay away from the Saudis’ policy, or close ties between the Bush family/administration and Saudi Arabia. According to official sources, of course. Don’t listen to what dissident reporters say.

Perhaps the problem isn’t the lack of torture, but something else.

Torture? Is it okay? Even in the most extreme cases? Not in my opinion, unless the person authorizing the torture

You don’t know anything about either Christianity or Judaism.

Jesus also said “I bring not peace but a sword.” And where do you think Jesus got “love your neighbor as yourself” in the first place? Or “care for the widow and orphan”? Or “care for the stranger, because you were strangers in the land of Egypt?” I could go on, but just read the WHOLE section of Exodus with the “eye for eye” passage in it, where you will find many of the humane compassionate laws the Jews were given, and which Jesus quoted.

Just FYI, “eye for eye” was an advance over the prevailing legal systems at that time, which had different laws for upper class and poor people. It never meant literally to put out someone’s eye to pay for another eye (as explicated in the Talmud), because that interpretation violated other Torah laws. It meant that everyone in a society would be subject to the same punishment for the same crime. In those times, imprisonment was a rare punishment - Jews didn’t chop off limbs, so most crimes warranted either death or a fine, and if you couldn’t pay the fine, you could sell yourself as in indentured servant, and there were many laws mandating humane treatment for slaves. Like I said, read Exodus and Deuteronomy.

In so much as the 8th Amendment prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, it prohibits such practices by the government, regardless of the nationality of the individual. Foreign nationals under trial or conviction in U.S. custody should constitutionaly expect the same treatment in this regard as U.S. citizens.

If you believe that such practices are in-bounds for non-citizens, there is nothing legally prohibiting the same practices against U.S. citizens.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m totally against the marijuana laws. Your body, do what you want. Like it or not, a law exists and should be respected. Changing the law is possible and we should all try to do that. I just think that if you are going to perform civil disobedience, you should expect to pay the price.

I respect anyone that defies the government and uses medical marijuana, but I don’t feel bad that they are in jail. The law is on the books, right or wrong. They knew it was against the law and chose to make a statement by breaking that law.

Because we have no way of thoroughly investigating these agencies, we’ll never know how many failure cases there are, how many people they’ve tortured to no result, how many *innocent* people they’ve tortured to no result. But given the general government MO of trumpeting the few successes of any program no matter how many failures there are, I’m inclined to suspect the number is quite high.

http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/70259.htm

We wouldn’t want to torture anyone to avoid this scenario, would we?

As I read posts about taking some high groung regarding the issue, I can’t help but think some people should watch some video from 9/11.

I disagree. We should punish torturers if it’s used in any case except where an attack is stopped. Sorry, I just can’t see expending any resource on punishing a guy/girl who broke info that saved Americans. “Thanks Agent Smith for the defense of your country, now if you’d just step into this jail cell for a few years…” If you do that just once then you’ll get agents who will not risk their asses to get info.

I say keep it illegal to prevent the slippery slope. But, when torture is used and information is gained that saves lives then file 13 the case and drive on to the next issue.

With something like torture, if you don’t punish it, you’re in effect sanctioning it. No matter the circumstances, a torturer is morally contaminated. If torture in a very specific circumstance will save lives, someone still has to make a sacrifice. Torture should be a falling-on-your-sword act; anything less and I don’t think we have a right to call this a free society anymore.

It’s amazing that we claim to be a religious country. As far as Christianity goes, I know Jesus said, Love your neighbor as yourself, and love your enemies as your neighbor. let’s see…. he also said, FORGIVE and FORGET. I know this seems hard to do, but for people who claim to live by the christian doctrine, it’s the only possible way to live. As for muslims, I don’t know, I’ve never read the Koran. Jews, well that’s another story, they still live eye for and eye. SO what does all this mean….depending upon your own personal beliefs torture may be moral or immoral. Personally, I put my faith in God, in doing so I relinquish all worries of getting blown up by terrorists, or harrassed by the gov’t because I like to smoke pot. I realize through my beliefs that a higher being, for me that’s God, is in the drivers seat and controls what happens not I, I’m but a servant. Now for people who are not religious, your moral equivalent to mine will differ, however, for those people. I would say to pay attention to the upcoming Supreme Court ruling on the miranda warnings. The city of Oxnard,CA is challengeing the constitutionality of the warnings, stating that crime scene interrogations do not violate the 5th and 14th amendments as long as the information is not used in court. It is like Evan said how long will it be before thieves, drug dealers, johns and hookers, start being “coerced/tortured” into giving the names of associates or a clients(bigger or smaller fish).

BTW,the White House and the solicitor general are behind Oxnard’s stance.(due to the war on terrorism).

Chris, I find your statement about medical marijuana users troubling. So do you condone the federal gov’t going into a state where the issue has been approved by voters, and raiding sick peoples houses because it’s the federal law???No offense, but that’s crap. You know there are laws still on the books in my city that say it’s a crime to spit on the sidewalk, but I haven’t seen this ever enforced, although back in the day it was. laws come and go, marijuana prohibition is a dinosaur that should be extinct. And that won’t happen without some civil disobedience.

For the record:

While I do feel sorry for anyone arrested for medical marijuana use, they did break the law. That is hardly comparable to the opression that the Iraqis suffer.

And, yes, I would advocate overthrowing pretty much any non-democratic regime…if the populace is opressed.

And, torture away. But, these men are enemy soldiers. It should be left to the military…not law enforcement.

And, your freedom statement is why I don’t claim to be a libertarian. I would die to protect your freedom…or an Iraqi’s…or a North Koreans.

The Egyptian example is the best anyway, don’t torture the captured, torture his family. Treat people the way they deserve to be treated. If terrorists are trying to kill our civilians then we should treat their families the same way. I don’t bring a dog into my house and expect him to eat with a fork and knife, I treat him like the dog he is.

I think the Israelis are being nice by only blowing up the homes of homicide bombers. I have a suspicion that there would be a lot fewer of these killers if they knew that when they blew themselves up they were signing the death warrants on their wife and children. It is the terrorist who kills his family, not the people who actually carry out the death sentence.

Does that make it right? No. However, does that make us stupid if we don’t use every method possible? Yes. Also, don’t forget, we’re not talking about putting them on a rack, or cutting off their fingers, one at a time. Psychological torture can be very effective, and hopefully, we’ve figured out how to do it right.

“And, no matter how it turns out, they should burn for it afterwards”

I’m against legalizing torture but if someone where to save American lives even if by using torture, I’d have a problem with punishing them.

My feeling is, if there is ever a “clock ticking” position, where there’s a very real possibility that torturing a suspect will avert many deaths, the individuals involved should make the moral choice themselves of whether to take the chance. And, no matter how it turns out, they should burn for it afterwards. If the outcome is really that important, they should feel the price worth paying personally. But to sanction it, make it bureaucratic and procedural…that’s repugnant.